Any contracts signed in 2023?

[klarie]

This demonstrates that Ineos are not even keeping their own Comms team in the picture based on Laura’s comment “We believe this has been a knock on effect…”, she seems to be guessing at the reason. Therefore I have great sympathy with their own Comms team as well as the Dealers!

Hopefully while all of this is going on, production continues and we are actually closer to receiving our promised Grenadiers, let’s be optimistic and hope for an early delivery - the contracts shouldn’t slow anything down as whatever vehicles they build, regardless of specification, will be highly saleable!

As an IT person Fully agree. The bureaucratic processes, legal topics, may perhaps more hindering delivery than just producing something.
Its not just the contract, there are so many background processes, also perhaps local laws that as of now - due to missing spec info or changing spec info may release the contract. .. Eg. Emissions, bumpers, control software.. a contract is binding paper for customer and supplier. - The customer must "just" provide the money, the provider a vehicle that meet customer demand but also compliant.. e.g. Austria regulation may inhibit an entire market for Ineos.

 

[JohnHeagney]

As an IT person Fully agree. The bureaucratic processes, legal topics, may perhaps more hindering delivery than just producing something.
Its not just the contract, there are so many background processes, also perhaps local laws that as of now - due to missing spec info or changing spec info may release the contract. .. Eg. Emissions, bumpers, control software.. a contract is binding paper for customer and supplier. - The customer must "just" provide the money, the provider a vehicle that meet customer demand but also compliant.. e.g. Austria regulation may inhibit an entire market for Ineos.

Klarie, I fully agree with you, it is a shame that the legal bods didn’t set the wheels turning to achieve the required contract that is complicated by launching Worldwide but I understand that the software they are using is SAP… very good but famed for being completed in twice the timescale and at twice the cost!

 

[marko]

As an IT person Fully agree. The bureaucratic processes, legal topics, may perhaps more hindering delivery than just producing something.
Its not just the contract, there are so many background processes, also perhaps local laws that as of now - due to missing spec info or changing spec info may release the contract. .. Eg. Emissions, bumpers, control software.. a contract is binding paper for customer and supplier. - The customer must "just" provide the money, the provider a vehicle that meet customer demand but also compliant.. e.g. Austria regulation may inhibit an entire market for Ineos.

I agree with you, but what's really puzzling is that IA issued contracts beginning of November in several markets (e.g. UK, Australia, Germany, maybe more) which one assumes would have been compliant with local regulations at the time. They have now had in excess of 2 months to complete any legal updates and re-issue a second batch of contracts in those same markets. That seems to me to be sufficient time for a line by line review and update. I accept that markets not included in the first batch could take more time to create from scratch but even then I would have thought there must be model forms of car and truck sales contracts their lawyers could plagiarise. I remain puzzled!

 

[klarie]

Klarie, I fully agree with you, it is a shame that the legal bods didn’t set the wheels turning to achieve the required contract that is complicated by launching Worldwide but I understand that the software they are using is SAP… very good but famed for being completed in twice the timescale and at twice the cost!

Hm.. John.. I should know that particular software quite well. And the "fame" came from some very large consulting firms that were selling novices with 6 weeks beginners courses as experts to customers.. but blaming the vendor when bending the product for what is what not inteded and using the brand name to charge huge rates as a money printing machine. Got some experience with it.. 26 years in October this year.
But this is mostly not a software problem. - This is just a configuration issue and to know the right switch to enable or disable.
However - there is something Ineos is a newbie on too - What is the configuration, when can I plan it to build and all components are there, get a VIN, get the papers, etc etc..

when I ordered my MB GLK (made in Bremen at that time 250CDI) bought directly at a Mercedes Benz facility not a dealer. -- the salesperson rang in Bremen the factory scheduling agent ( same software used btw.) have a look at this order number.. by when can you make it.. .. so he did not only look at parts needed, but staff, tools maintenance windows and other various impacting factors. I got a quite close build date based on that.
So that is not software but mainly processes and consider all the other jobs inflicted. Like in Golf.. Ineos is at beginners level.. so 7 at par 5. .. and as they are old school and not in a hip electric segment.. the course rating is also a bit higher.

Btw - my IT focus is not automotive at all. - I do regulated markets.. fin, pharma, telco, def.. , quality and anything that is related to regulatory stuff, tax, track /trace / audit..
Most people find it boring.. and its a must - not hip.. it doesnt give you any money - but saves just from fines.

 

[Jean Mercier]

Hm.. John.. I should know that particular software quite well. And the "fame" came from some very large consulting firms that were selling novices with 6 weeks beginners courses as experts to customers.. but blaming the vendor when bending the product for what is what not inteded and using the brand name to charge huge rates as a money printing machine. Got some experience with it.. 26 years in October this year.
But this is mostly not a software problem. - This is just a configuration issue and to know the right switch to enable or disable.

I had a similar experience implementing SAP at the Belgian railways, as an external non-SAP maintenance expert: the software is fantastic, you can do almost everything with it, but the big consulting companies are crap!

 

[ECrider]

Quite a leap of faith I think for Ineos to produce cars without signed contracts. There must be some people out there now questioning their £2500 decision, along with those that have a sudden change of circumstances and no longer have the funds to proceed. I've spec'd a SW with panel sides with diffs/elecs/safaris/winch etc etc, if IA come a long and say like they did to Deepblue your car is in production and will be with your agent end of the month I cld just turn around and say, nah sorry I've changed my mind. They've then got to find someone who wants my spec like for like. Granted prices increased etc but still a fair sized gamble without tying me in legally. (think Deepblue has signed a contract but just using as an example).

 

[JohnHeagney]

Hm.. John.. I should know that particular software quite well. And the "fame" came from some very large consulting firms that were selling novices with 6 weeks beginners courses as experts to customers.. but blaming the vendor when bending the product for what is what not inteded and using the brand name to charge huge rates as a money printing machine. Got some experience with it.. 26 years in October this year.
But this is mostly not a software problem. - This is just a configuration issue and to know the right switch to enable or disable.
However - there is something Ineos is a newbie on too - What is the configuration, when can I plan it to build and all components are there, get a VIN, get the papers, etc etc..

when I ordered my MB GLK (made in Bremen at that time 250CDI) bought directly at a Mercedes Benz facility not a dealer. -- the salesperson rang in Bremen the factory scheduling agent ( same software used btw.) have a look at this order number.. by when can you make it.. .. so he did not only look at parts needed, but staff, tools maintenance windows and other various impacting factors. I got a quite close build date based on that.
So that is not software but mainly processes and consider all the other jobs inflicted. Like in Golf.. Ineos is at beginners level.. so 7 at par 5. .. and as they are old school and not in a hip electric segment.. the course rating is also a bit higher.

Btw - my IT focus is not automotive at all. - I do regulated markets.. fin, pharma, telco, def.. , quality and anything that is related to regulatory stuff, tax, track /trace / audit..
Most people find it boring.. and its a must - not hip.. it doesnt give you any money - but saves just from fines.

Klarie, you have it spot on in your posting, informative and factual! Thanks

 

[JohnHeagney]

Quite a leap of faith I think for Ineos to produce cars without signed contracts. There must be some people out there now questioning their £2500 decision, along with those that have a sudden change of circumstances and no longer have the funds to proceed. I've spec'd a SW with panel sides with diffs/elecs/safaris/winch etc etc, if IA come a long and say like they did to Deepblue your car is in production and will be with your agent end of the month I cld just turn around and say, nah sorry I've changed my mind. They've then got to find someone who wants my spec like for like. Granted prices increased etc but still a fair sized gamble without tying me in legally. (think Deepblue has signed a contract but just using as an example).

In reality, the demand for Grenadiers will be such that regardless of specification, in the early days even one in sky blue pink with yellow spots would sell!

 

[To]

Quite a leap of faith I think for Ineos to produce cars without signed contracts. There must be some people out there now questioning their £2500 decision, along with those that have a sudden change of circumstances and no longer have the funds to proceed. I've spec'd a SW with panel sides with diffs/elecs/safaris/winch etc etc, if IA come a long and say like they did to Deepblue your car is in production and will be with your agent end of the month I cld just turn around and say, nah sorry I've changed my mind. They've then got to find someone who wants my spec like for like. Granted prices increased etc but still a fair sized gamble without tying me in legally. (think Deepblue has signed a contract but just using as an example).

When Ineos produces Grenadiers for customers, where are they located? Are the cars on the company premises in Hambach? Probably not in the factory halls, because they are probably not big enough to accommodate so many vehicles.

 

[das mo]

Quite a leap of faith I think for Ineos to produce cars without signed contracts. There must be some people out there now questioning their £2500 decision, along with those that have a sudden change of circumstances and no longer have the funds to proceed. I've spec'd a SW with panel sides with diffs/elecs/safaris/winch etc etc, if IA come a long and say like they did to Deepblue your car is in production and will be with your agent end of the month I cld just turn around and say, nah sorry I've changed my mind. They've then got to find someone who wants my spec like for like. Granted prices increased etc but still a fair sized gamble without tying me in legally. (think Deepblue has signed a contract but just using as an example).

Still better risking to have few cars sitting around a bit longer than have all your staff in Hambach sitting around doing nothing, no?

 

[Deepblue]

In reality, the demand for Grenadiers will be such that regardless of specification, in the early days even one in sky blue pink with yellow spots would sell!

where could you find such fancy color combi in the configurator?? I only saw some conservative ones so went with Magic Mushroom...

 

[ECrider]

Still better risking to have few cars sitting around a bit longer than have all your staff in Hambach sitting around doing nothing, no?

fair point. less than ideal

 

[Jean Mercier]

 

[JohnHeagney]

Still better risking to have few cars sitting around a bit longer than have all your staff in Hambach sitting around doing nothing, no?

Absolutely correct!

 

[globalgregors]

I had a similar experience implementing SAP at the Belgian railways, as an external non-SAP maintenance expert: the software is fantastic, you can do almost everything with it, but the big consulting companies are crap!

“Experienced with SAP” might need to be a new tab on the member profile. Hey: easy bagging the consultancies though. Let’s not ignore une certaine complicité between the product and the purchaser (disclaimer: former Accenture/Andersen - guilty as charged).

 

[bemax]

In reality, the demand for Grenadiers will be such that regardless of specification, in the early days even one in sky blue pink with yellow spots would sell!

I am interested in that one! Can you please send a photo and an account number, so I can transfer the money.
By the way, in what country starts my „hard way home“ journey?

 

[Jean Mercier]

“Experienced with SAP” might need to be a new tab on the member profile. Hey: easy bagging the consultancies though. Let’s not ignore une certaine complicité between the product and the purchaser (disclaimer: former Accenture/Andersen - guilty as charged).

When I say the big consulting companies are "crap", I am not speaking about individual senior expert consultants (even belonging to Arthur Andersen or Ernst & Young), neither about the young bright guys they hire!
I am saying this because I agree completely with what Klarie said:

... very large consulting firms that were selling novices with 6 weeks beginners courses as experts to customers...

I was hired several times by big consulting companies because I was myself a "senior expert" consultant in a very specific branch "maintenance management" (now called "asset" management), but had to work with young bright guys who scarcely knew their senior consultants, and didn't believe me when I tried to explain them that "maintenance" is VERY different from "production": almost nothing is predictable, especially not the "bigger problems".

It is like car maintenance: you can predict tire/tyre wear and oil replacement but not the failure of the turbo charger. Try to explain that to a young guy who gets every 3 years a brand new company car!

 

[globalgregors]

When I say the big consulting companies are "crap", I am not speaking about individual senior expert consultants (even belonging to Arthur Andersen or Ernst & Young), neither about the young bright guys they hire!
I am saying this because I agree completely with what Klarie said:

I was hired several times by big consulting companies because I was myself a "senior expert" consultant in a very specific branch "maintenance management" (now called "asset" management), but had to work with young bright guys who scarcely knew their senior consultants, and didn't believe me when I tried to explain them that "maintenance" is VERY different from "production": almost nothing is predictable, especially not the "bigger problems".

It is like car maintenance: you can predict tire/tyre wear and oil replacement but not the failure of the turbo charger. Try to explain that to a young guy who gets every 3 years a brand new company car!

But JM: someone in those “big consulting companies” recognised a gap and plugged it with your expertise and insight, and a client agreed to it. That’s only necessary when such talent is not present or available to the project in the client organisation. Shouldn’t an asset owner know how to maintain their asset? If they did have resources, why were they not made available to the (very expensive) project? Easy to blame the consultants but I’d ask a few more “why?”s…

This also why I’m reasonably ambivalent about the Ineos service organisation in the first couple of years of ownership. Being the asset owner it’s encumbent on me to understand it’s sustainment needs and operate it accordingly… after a time the service organisation will accumulate more knowledge than me but in the short term I’ll likely be in a more intimate relationship with the vehicle than their box-fresh local service manager.

It’d be different if I never left Sydney perhaps, so I’m not suggesting this applies to all owners. It’s just that I’ll be taking the vehicle into the sticks.

 

[klarie]

“Experienced with SAP” might need to be a new tab on the member profile. Hey: easy bagging the consultancies though. Let’s not ignore une certaine complicité between the product and the purchaser (disclaimer: former Accenture/Andersen - guilty as charged).

ROTFL.. Hm a former colleague from Ireland called a very special company „Indenture“..
However I used to know some fellows from mention consulting companies that were really nice chaps.
Felt they were mistreated and burnt by their employer. Make hours .. not solutions. Certain outfit.. carried in buses ..
Lots of the better ones leave after 1 to 2 years ..
But once again.. it’s processes I experienced something with box cars on trains.. to be loaded with vehicle spare parts
What was forgotten was eg that a Boxcar has only a limited volume, what spare part fit into which boxcar, volume, weight and size.. the so called doors closed rule when a box is full and put spares in the next..
Optimization .. So at the end noone knew in what train box car was the spare .. Took. a while to sort this issue out.
Just to be plain.. find some one or some product to put the blame on.
In this case it’s again processes and logistics processes.. if the rules and methods are not defined.. how shall the software know if that rule is not defined ?
It will exactly do what man instructs. Not what is meant.
And AI and learning algorithms won’t help there also.
This is still a human thingie.
Back to Ineos.. I still grant them „puppy protection“ so they encounter a lot of get to production process issues ..

The big boys like Toyota, Volkswagen have already and long term proven processes to go to market.
Something Ineos still has to work out Or improve

 

[globalgregors]

ROTFL.. Hm a former colleague from Ireland called a very special company „Indenture“..
However I used to know some fellows from mention consulting companies that were really nice chaps.
Felt they were mistreated and burnt by their employer. Make hours .. not solutions. Certain outfit.. carried in buses ..
Lots of the better ones leave after 1 to 2 years ..
But once again.. it’s processes I experienced something with box cars on trains.. to be loaded with vehicle spare parts
What was forgotten was eg that a Boxcar has only a limited volume, what spare part fit into which boxcar, volume, weight and size.. the so called doors closed rule when a box is full and put spares in the next..
Optimization .. So at the end noone knew in what train box car was the spare .. Took. a while to sort this issue out.
Just to be plain.. find some one or some product to put the blame on.
In this case it’s again processes and logistics processes.. if the rules and methods are not defined.. how shall the software know if that rule is not defined ?
It will exactly do what man instructs. Not what is meant.
And AI and learning algorithms won’t help there also.
This is still a human thingie.
Back to Ineos.. I still grant them „puppy protection“ so they encounter a lot of get to production process issues ..

The big boys like Toyota, Volkswagen have already and long term proven processes to go to market.
Something Ineos still has to work out Or improve

LOL Yes, that all sounds familiar.

I agree but with the caution that Toyota, Volkswagen etc processes are maybe less ‘proven’ that one might expect. Are they really doing such a good job? Drive an 80-series on a soft surface with it’s unequal wheel track slewing down the ruts and it doesn’t seem that way… or new Amarok vs last Amarok… not to mention those gleaming glass boxes of dealerships with leather couches and complimentary coffees. Why would I pay for those? Do I need Toyota to send me a Christmas cap or mug? Not to mention the whole EV debacle, or MB screwing it’s dealerships. It’s an industry in crisis.

I’m kind of hoping Ineos chart their own course, taking advantage of their relative agility and single point of ownership.