Americas Price shock (US)

[DCPU]

Apart from the transfer case, which is made by Tremec in Mexico, none of the parts are sourced from North America. This creates an added concern around part-availability and access to service.

In particular, I’m a little concerned about the Carraro axles; they are supposed to be an excellent product, but we know little about the availability of gears or aftermarket lockers for these axles.

Carraro do have a presence in the US though:

 

[Krabby]

And they sell their tractors here too. Think Ineos might partner with them in some capacity?

 

[stickshifter]

Carraro do have a presence in the US though:
View attachment 7798471

Yeah, Carraro axles are found in some John Deere tractors, some Caterpillar tractors, and some other U.S. vehicles.

Carraro Axles

Shop Carraro Axles online at Palmer Johnson Power Systems, an authorized dealer and service provider.

www.pjpower.com

But my point was that I haven't been able to find out anything about (1) the actual specs on the axles in the Grenadier, in order to figure out how they compare to known products in the off-road world here in North America, like Dynatrac's Prorock 44 or Prorock 60, Spicer's Ultimate Dana 60, or Terraflex axles (detailed specs for all these products are online and easily accessible), (2) what alternate gear sets are available, or (3) what aftermarket lockers are compatible with the axles & gear sets. This info would be critical for anyone who wanted to go up in tire size, re-gear the axles, and install a locker (we don't know if the Eaton lockers offered by Ineos will be compatible with a re-geared axle).

I'm not disparaging the Grenadier, I'd just like information that any off-roader would expect when buying a vehicle. All of this is super-transparent when buying a Jeep (for example), and the ability to modify on one's own, or get 'off-road upgrades' from the factory is a known commodity.

 

[DCPU]

Yes, that's a general gripe about lack of most technical detail. Hopefully, it's just a symptom of a fast moving prototype phase; and at some point in the very near future all details will be frozen, if not already, and manuals published.

The only defence I could make is that you don't know the technical details of what Jeep are going to put in their 2024/5 models?

 

[MidnightCamper]

It looks like there will be two options for the Tacoma in 2024: a turbo-charged I4, and a hybrid I4. This has not yet been confirmed by Toyota, but TFL is running with the story, so I think its likely to be true:

Video: 2024 Toyota Tacoma to Offer Two Power Options – Turbo & Turbo Hybrid, Says Insider

We have new information from an anonymous insider source that the upcoming 2024 Toyota Tacoma will offer a choice of two powertrains: a 2.4L turbocharged I4 or

tfltruck.com

I agree that the utility of a pickup is awesome. There are - of course - pros and cons when comparing a wagon to a pickup, and it comes down to what works the best for any one person most of the time. You probably know all this, but what the hell, I'll waste both our time...

A wagon is much better for technical off-road driving, for driving around town, and there are other nice things - like you don't get snow, frost, or moisture build-up blocking your view the way you do if you own a truck with a topper (truck guys know what I'm talking about).

A truck is much better for hauling lots of gear, and (if you have a topper) it allows you to leave big items in the bed that you want to use regularly, if (1) you don't want the stuff taking over the interior of your vehicle, or (2) you don't want it on your roof. For example, I leave recovery gear in the bed; and sometimes my mountain bike - secured and protected from the elements by a topper. In the winter, I leave 10 pairs of skis in the bed. My wife and I ski 4-5 days per week, and we each have 5 pairs of skis in the bed: 1 pair of Tele skis, 1 pair of Classic skis, and 3 pairs of Skate skis - each waxed for different conditions Its kind of nice not having this stuff in the cab with us, and its also nice not pulling stuff out of a Rocket Box on the roof.

While the Grenadier has a much better payload than the Tacoma, you can modify the Tacoma to improve payload. The first option I'll suggest has not yet been finalized (either in spec or in price), but the second option is viable, would give you a truck bed, decent payload, and still be half the price of a Grenadier.

(1) Toyota is coming out with a new overland package called the Trailhunter, that can be added to a Tundra, Tacoma, or Sequoia. Details have not yet been confirmed, but it is supposed to improve payload, and provide things like steel bumpers, a suspension lift, larger tires, and appropriate gearing for the larger tires. Again, we don't know the specifics of the package or the price. Here is a story from TFL on the Trailhunter package:

https://tfltruck.com/2022/11/new-toyota-tundra-trailhunter-sema-debut-news/

(2) Get the Tacoma TRD Off-Road model - not the TRD Pro. The Off-Road starts at $35,440 while the Pro starts at $46,685 - you pay a premium for the "Pro" badge. Yeah, you get really nice Fox shocks on the Pro, which are great for high-speed desert driving and high speed dirt roads, and there are a couple of other nice features (like better fog lights), but both come with a rear locker, and both run the same size tire from the factory 265/70/R17 (which is the same size as the Grenadier). The payloads for the two models are similar, but you can get a higher payload if you get the Off-Road with the Access Cab, and the 6-foot bed.
Payload TRD Off-Road: 1,135 pounds (four-door with 5-foot bed) or 1,285 pounds (access cab with 6-foot bed).
Payload of TRD Pro 1,155 pounds (the Pro is only available in one configuration: 4-door with 5-foot bed).

After you get your Tacoma Off-Road, swap out the suspension with one that provides a little lift, and improves payload. I'm running a Stage 5 Icon suspension on my Tacoma, and there is significant improvement all around (2-inch lift, I run 33-inch tires, it carries weight much better, is fantastic at speed on washboard roads, great in the whoops, and flexes more on rocky trails). Another great option is Old Man Emu's BP51 suspension (sold in the U.S. by ARB), and you can opt for the Heavy Duty springs. Again, this will carry weight much better than the stock suspension.

Old Man Emu Products - ARB 4x4 Accessories

arbusa.com

After modding your Tacoma, you total cost would be between $40,000 - $55,000 depending on how you spec the vehicle. Who knows what the Grenadier will cost - maybe $70,000 - $80,000. Just remember: no modification can change the legal payload of your vehicle, which is defined by the door sticker. So its always best to get a good payload from the manufacturer (advantage Grenadier). Of course, if payload is super-important, the Ford Ranger has better payload than the Tacoma, and is still a "midsize" truck, or you can step up to a larger truck, and then you can get up to 4,000 pounds of payload no problem!

I got the loaded TRD Off Road in Jan 2009 when they were almost giving them away and never looked back. It has the frame replacement. At 150,000 miles do I keep it and throw an Alu-Cab on it or replace with Grenadier/Alu-Cab hopeful. Last 8,000 mile trip it was hard not being able to stand up indoors. And no access from the cab in bad weather. Taco has lots more room. AND takes the proverbial 4 x 8 sheet of plywood.

 

[BD1]

On this test drive video the guy said he heard about $80K from ineos reps

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlOokmErO1g

 

[CryHavoc]

Given that those "reps" aren't, likely, Ineos employees, and meetings in NC were happening last week to finalize things...there's zero credibility to those numbers. And "around" $80k. For what? A base model? A loaded Trialmaster? Just more YouTube fodder and a chance for this guy to play with video captions. I'll worry about it all on 17 May when...supposedly...pricing will be released (according to other "reps".

 

[roozkhan]

One thing I hope will help us is that the USD is stronger than other currencies at the moment, therefore our purchasing power is stronger. Maybe our relative price will be lower compared to other countries.

 

[trobex]

The IA in 'base' model no options at all etc will likely be $75K USD+. I do not see how it's possible to be lower in the USofA. But what are we comparing too... a unit made by Ford/GM/DODGE etc? Component quality in the IA should be far (FAR) superior we would hope...

Try buying a new F150 in Australia - need to be a Crypto fraudster to afford one!

 

[DaveB]

The IA in 'base' model no options at all etc will likely be $75K USD+. I do not see how it's possible to be lower in the USofA. But what are we comparing too... a unit made by Ford/GM/DODGE etc? Component quality in the IA should be far (FAR) superior we would hope...

Try buying a new F150 in Australia - need to be a Crypto fraudster to afford one!

USD$1 buys 0.92 Euro
AUD$1 only buys 0.62 Euro
So a Trialmaster in

• France starts at 75,790 euro which is USD$82,663
• Swiss starts at CHF$82,290 which is USD$90,174
• Australia AUD$109,525 which is USD$74,370 AUD$99,568 without tax which is USD$67,592
• UK 69,000 Pounds which is USD$85,684

So I am guessing the lowest USD$ would be around $65- $67K

 

[Krabby]

Do the Swiss, French and Brit prices have VAT and other on-road fees included? That stuff adds a ton to the base price.

 

[DaveB]

Do the Swiss, French and Brit prices have VAT and other on-road fees included? That stuff adds a ton to the base price.

I assume so but not sure how much they are
The Swiss one says it includes VAT but I don't know the rate for anywhere other than Australia's 10%, that's why I removed the Australian tax.

 

[Pipm4000]

I assume so but not sure how much they are
The Swiss one says it includes VAT but I don't know the rate for anywhere other than Australia's 10%, that's why I removed the Australian tax.

For the UK there is a emissions tax and VAT at 20% in that price so tax free price is about £55,550, convert to USD and you get back to about USD 69,000. I recon Sir Jim may offer slightly better UK prices to ensure there is a good market here. He made lots of commitments to early on and probably wants to build a bit of UK heritage into the brand.

 

[AWo]

I’m still really keen on the Grenadier; it is maybe 75% of what I would want in my “perfect overlander” - and that is higher than anything currently on the market. But I’m with you both - there is risk with the purchase, especially in the American market, and rumors of rising prices and extended delays are dampening my enthusiasm.

Apart from the transfer case, which is made by Tremec in Mexico, none of the parts are sourced from North America. This creates an added concern around part-availability and access to service. NOTE – if the Grenadier becomes really successful, my guess is that BMW dealers will take over sales and service, and that would alleviate concerns over access to parts and service. However, if the Grenadier remains a low-volume niche vehicle, long-term ownership might be a bit of a nuisance, and if Ineos Automotive goes under, well, that’s a whole other problem.

While some parts are quite common here (e.g. the BMW engine and the ZF transmission) many other parts are harder to come by. In particular, I’m a little concerned about the Carraro axles; they are supposed to be an excellent product, but we know little about the availability of gears or aftermarket lockers for these axles. In contrast, Dana-type axles (whether made by Dana, Dynatrac, Terraflex, or whoever) are super common, gears are widely available, as are lockers, including the manual (cable-actuated) lockers from Ox (which - in my opinion - are the lockers that best embrace the ethos of the Grenadier). If the Grenadier came with Dana axles, I would order one without factory lockers, and I’d put in a set of Ox-Lockers: (1) no electronic actuator as with the Eaton lockers in the IG, (2) they do not unlock briefly when shifting between forward and reverse as with the Eaton lockers, (3) no need for air lines and O-rings as with ARB Air-Lockers, and (4) they are super strong, and engage when you pull a manual lever.

My concerns around parts and service seem to go up as the likely price for the vehicle goes up. Part of that is irrational, and based on a vague notion of risk, and part is based on the viability of the Grenadier in the North American market. I worry that as price goes up, the Grenadier will price itself out of the market like the Landcruiser 200 did. The Landcruiser’s main competitive advantage was its durability and reliability; many other vehicles were faster and handled better on-road (Range Rover, BMW, Audi, etc.), many other vehicles were cheaper, but still provided all-wheel drive (Subaru, etc.), and the Jeep Wrangler outperformed the Landcruiser in technical off-roading, and captures that joy that comes with feeling like your vehicle has personality – even if it breaks down on occasion.

Durability and reliability are also the Grenadier’s main selling points. Ineos will need people who are willing to pay for something they can’t discern in a test-drive (durability & reliability), whereas power and handling are immediately obvious (and a similarly priced SUV will outperform a Grenadier on the tarmac – by a wide margin). Of course, if you are in the market for a Grenadier, you shouldn’t be cross-shopping with SUVs, but once the price gets over $80,000 a lot of folk are going to look at some of the other vehicles in that price range, and realize that 85K gets you a really sweet ride. Over the last 20 years, most Americans faced with this choice opted for the expensive sporty-SUV and not the expensive bullet-proof Landcruiser.

On the other hand, the Grenadier has some things going for it that the Landcruiser did not. The solid front axle will be a key selling point to real overlanders, and the Grenadier is also a lot “cooler” than the Landcruiser. It has a retro look that is really popular today, and the styling (both inside and out) appeals to every adult who played with a Tonka truck as a kid (you know what I mean). Will this be enough to support sales? Sometimes I think “yes” sometimes I think “no”. I guess we will see, but I hope for the Grenadier’s success.

Ineos tried to get Dana axles but they rejected.

AWo

 

[DCPU]

Ineos tried to get Dana axles but they rejected.

AWo

Who is "they" - Ineos or Dana?

 

[DaveB]

Yeah, Carraro axles are found in some John Deere tractors, some Caterpillar tractors, and some other U.S. vehicles.

Carraro Axles

Shop Carraro Axles online at Palmer Johnson Power Systems, an authorized dealer and service provider.

www.pjpower.com

But my point was that I haven't been able to find out anything about (1) the actual specs on the axles in the Grenadier, in order to figure out how they compare to known products in the off-road world here in North America, like Dynatrac's Prorock 44 or Prorock 60, Spicer's Ultimate Dana 60, or Terraflex axles (detailed specs for all these products are online and easily accessible), (2) what alternate gear sets are available, or (3) what aftermarket lockers are compatible with the axles & gear sets. This info would be critical for anyone who wanted to go up in tire size, re-gear the axles, and install a locker (we don't know if the Eaton lockers offered by Ineos will be compatible with a re-geared axle).

I'm not disparaging the Grenadier, I'd just like information that any off-roader would expect when buying a vehicle. All of this is super-transparent when buying a Jeep (for example), and the ability to modify on one's own, or get 'off-road upgrades' from the factory is a known commodity.

My understanding is you either order them with lockers or there is no possibility to fit lockers afterwards
They are two different axles.
While Dana Axles have been around in Australia for 30 years or more they are generally not that big a deal in 4WD community, mainly due to Toyotas being so strong here.
At the end of the day while I understand your support for US made it just doesn't have a very good reputation around a lot of the world. Particularly in Australia.
The easy availability of spares and aftermarket upgrades is usually a good sign that things break a lot and the original vehicle was not particularly good.

 

[MrMike]

Do the Swiss, French and Brit prices have VAT and other on-road fees included? That stuff adds a ton to the base price.

I did the calcs on my build, it came in at $77k US without taxes or dealer delivery etc etc. so take from that what you may.

 

[DCPU]

My understanding is you either order them with lockers or there is no possibility to fit lockers afterwards
They are two different axles.

There really needs to be some more information as to why that should be. Has anyone else received the same information?

 

[Eric]

There really needs to be some more information as to why that should be. Has anyone else received the same information?

Although I've not ordered lockers, and therefore was not taking a lot of notice, I thought I saw somewhere that they could not be retro-fitted as the axle had to be changed. I may be wrong, as I say because I hadn't ordered them.

 

[Arkaig]

There really needs to be some more information as to why that should be. Has anyone else received the same information?

I think it was the Austrian test driver in this video (c40.20) who had said that:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Wbr_UCfZcs&t=1839s