2024 ADAS Issue and Work Around (USA)

[Rubicon Maybe]

Did you tell them that you wanted to see them making this an opt-in feature rather than per ignition cycle opt-out (or is this something you don't care about)?

i find the whole opt-out per drive super annoying on the vehicles i've tested this on.

I had an in-depth discussion with the representative. But there is little she can do other than pass my displeasure along to the engineers. I did however write a response to them expressing my frustration and the frustration of many within North America over their reluctance to change this issue.

 

[YellowLab]

I had an in-depth discussion with the representative. But there is little she can do other than pass my displeasure along to the engineers. I did however write a response to them expressing my frustration and the frustration of many within North America over their reluctance to change this issue.

Not your issue but venting here - so many things in the EU are by ‘opt in’ only - WTF should I have to opt out every time for something that is not an NTSA requirement!

 

[flynnsk]

None of those will provide any sort of control module long coding or flashing abilities though...

To be honest, I'm not all that familiar with BMW, however I've used such software to program different modules in Ford products. For example, enabling car auto lock or setting interior lights not to come on when opening doors, etc. The largest issue in my opinion (besides upfront cost), is unless it's your business or you can justify the your significant other, that $400-600 per year for a tool that may get used a handful of times.. you end up with an expensive paper weight.

Some of the more exhaustive kits come with additional service modules, for example key cloning, TPMS etc, each module adding more $$

 

[DrahthHunter]

I'm leaning towards purchasing a bi-directional OBD2 scanner/tablet with ADAS/TPMS (Autel, Launch etc), however seems like nearly all require some sort of subscription plan, meaning after a year or two, if don't pay continually $$$ then left with an expensive paper weight.

Maybe we group buy one chip in, if someone can figure out how to shut it down then we buy a nice pelican case and ship it around have meetup or something share the hardware and fix it. I looked ‘‘em up 1500.00 that’s cheap ill buy the dang thing it rent the tool out with the Fix?
This is why these communities are the best we are resourceful enough In the most part we are all hours away from help we have to be.

 

[parb]

I have access to very advanced CAN/LIN/Flexray/car Ethernet analyzers and programmers at work.

I'll use my work stuff whenever possible, but if the setting isn't available in software the much more complicated remedy is to intercept the message on the CAN network and prevent it from reaching the system that generate the alert to the human. Interposing CAN messages is a pretty invasive way to prevent alerts.

Replacing the firmware in the CAN module that generate the alert is also pretty serious work and I would worry about how this could potentially fail service appointments to do software updates. A car as new as the gren is likely to have lots of updates coming it's way in the next couple of quarters.

I don't think a CAN reader/programmer can meaningfully do much unless the code in the controller supports changing the alert already, and if that were present then I don't get Ineos hesitation to just roll it out in North America..

I suspect this change is far more involved than just getting an analyzer/programmer to alter a setting. I'm sure someone will figure that out but if it's trivial then I would have expected to have seen that out of the EU already from tuners.

 

[YellowLab]

Maybe we group buy one chip in, if someone can figure out how to shut it down then we buy a nice pelican case and ship it around have meetup or something share the hardware and fix it. I looked ‘‘em up 1500.00 that’s cheap ill buy the dang thing it rent the tool out with the Fix?
This is why these communities are the best we are resourceful enough In the most part we are all hours away from help we have to be.

I think something along those lines is a GREAT ideal. I am sure people on this site would pay $100 each raise money to have this issue eliminated by someone who knows what to code. I can't see INEOS putting a major priority on this since their response thus far has been to say it is a 'legal requirement.' @Krabby @Stu_Barnes

 

[DrahthHunter]

I have access to very advanced CAN/LIN/Flexray/car Ethernet analyzers and programmers at work.

I'll use my work stuff whenever possible, but if the setting isn't available in software the much more complicated remedy is to intercept the message on the CAN network and prevent it from reaching the system that generate the alert to the human. Interposing CAN messages is a pretty invasive way to prevent alerts.

Replacing the firmware in the CAN module that generate the alert is also pretty serious work and I would worry about how this could potentially fail service appointments to do software updates. A car as new as the gren is likely to have lots of updates coming it's way in the next couple of quarters.

I don't think a CAN reader/programmer can meaningfully do much unless the code in the controller supports changing the alert already, and if that were present then I don't get Ineos hesitation to just roll it out in North America..

I suspect this change is far more involved than just getting an analyzer/programmer to alter a setting. I'm sure someone will figure that out but if it's trivial then I would have expected to have seen that out of the EU already from tuners.

Excellent perspective, thanks I do see many updates incoming I would hope they can be done remotely due to the fact we are so far from a dealer network.

 

[Deleted member 9047666 (user closed account)]

My guess is the Grenadier will not accept OTA Updates (from Ineos, the Dealer, or Others). Hope I am wrong for lots of reasons, including the fact that I am 250 miles from my dealer! The conversations here and with the reps and dealers are great and we need to keep moving this message higher up in the ranks. The fact that this concern was raised in the Motor Trend article a few days ago was a big step for us. It's here if you didn't see it.

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2024-ineos-grenadier-fieldmaster-edition-off-road-truck-first-drive-review/?fbclid=IwAR1XjidY5ZK7lrNJKrExMzelpUiqLuPMKS2tvOQA3s46q7vu-2D9e39O4Tg

I would love to see a mainstream video review of a 2024 US model with them trying to decode the chimes, clicks and beeps.

That would be huge!

 

[anand]

I have access to very advanced CAN/LIN/Flexray/car Ethernet analyzers and programmers at work.

I'll use my work stuff whenever possible, but if the setting isn't available in software the much more complicated remedy is to intercept the message on the CAN network and prevent it from reaching the system that generate the alert to the human. Interposing CAN messages is a pretty invasive way to prevent alerts.

Replacing the firmware in the CAN module that generate the alert is also pretty serious work and I would worry about how this could potentially fail service appointments to do software updates. A car as new as the gren is likely to have lots of updates coming it's way in the next couple of quarters.

I don't think a CAN reader/programmer can meaningfully do much unless the code in the controller supports changing the alert already, and if that were present then I don't get Ineos hesitation to just roll it out in North America..

I suspect this change is far more involved than just getting an analyzer/programmer to alter a setting. I'm sure someone will figure that out but if it's trivial then I would have expected to have seen that out of the EU already from tuners.

Say it louder for the people in the back...

 

[YellowLab]

My guess is the Grenadier will not accept OTA Updates (from Ineos, the Dealer, or Others). Hope I am wrong for lots of reasons, including the fact that I am 250 miles from my dealer! The conversations here and with the reps and dealers are great and we need to keep moving this message higher up in the ranks. The fact that this concern was raised in the Motor Trend article a few days ago was a big step for us. It's here if you didn't see it.

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2024-ineos-grenadier-fieldmaster-edition-off-road-truck-first-drive-review/?fbclid=IwAR1XjidY5ZK7lrNJKrExMzelpUiqLuPMKS2tvOQA3s46q7vu-2D9e39O4Tg

I would love to see a mainstream video review of a 2024 US model with them trying to decode the chimes, clicks and beeps.

That would be huge!

Do we have any exec contacts at Ineos we should all email to? Greg Clark - maybe we should all email him?

 

[parb]

Give me an email address and I'll email.
After reading the manual update for my24 it's pretty clear that they wholesale brought into the US every one of the EU government ideas including the provision for adding alcohol locks, driver monitoring, data logging with law enforcement access (page 15 of the manual).

I'm generally okay with the that being present as long as there is an mechanism to turn off the feature permanently (eg between ignition cycles), and from the manual it looks like most can be turned off except data logging and the speed warning and speed change alerts. This seems like it's worth to complain about as poorly suited for the US market.

 

[Deleted member 9047666 (user closed account)]

Give me an email address and I'll email.
After reading the manual update for my24 it's pretty clear that they wholesale brought into the US every one of the EU government ideas including the provision for adding alcohol locks, driver monitoring, data logging with law enforcement access (page 15 of the manual).

I'm generally okay with the that being present as long as there is an mechanism to turn off the feature permanently (eg between ignition cycles), and from the manual it looks like most can be turned off except data logging and the speed warning and speed change alerts. This seems like it's worth to complain about as poorly suited for the US market.

That was a good find!

 

[holdmybeer]

Please keep OTA updates away from from my Grenadier.

If someone bricks my car, I want it to be sitting in a service bay. Vehicles have had surprise downgrades and partial cripplings by OTA updates. Recently, Polestar and Rivian. (New and inexperienced carmakers ... see a pattern that INEOS matches?)

When you allow Authorized Entities to reconfigure/upgrade/downgrade/disable your vehicle, you're basically allowing Anyone Who Discovers The Key to do it. Best case, it's only a good-intentioned but clumsy manufacturer. Worst case, it's warrantless law enforcement, three-letter-agencies, hackers, car thieves, and malicious jackasses.

If you build a door, assume keys for its lock will be found and you can never lock it properly again.

 

[unimogfrog]

Ok, View attachment 7836325View attachment 7836326I just pulled it. The good news is the annoying sound stops.

The bad news is the dash lights up like a Christmas Tree. Looks like it also disables the auto break. Also, the Centre screen displays an annoying warning.

I'm going to put it back, but Ineos please fix this! I shouldn’t have to decide between basic safety features or a sound like I’ve left my indicator on.

I get the same 3 warning lights when I disable All ADAS features in the settings. Hoping there may be some options to keep ADAS turned Off for US owners coming in the future.

 

[Tom109]

I'm hopeful for a simple solution. The product autostop eliminator simply fits between two halves of a connector beneath the driver seat (2021 Subaru Crosstrek). It doesn't disrupt any code, but maintains your start/stop button selection (on/off) regardless of ignition cycles. Similar to Honda VCM (Cylinder deactivation) which can be defeated by under-reporting engine temp by 3degF.

 

[S52]

It shouldn't be too difficult to reprogram the firmware to "save" the previous setting and keep it there after the start cycle. My wife's 2016 X3 has automatic stop/start and if you select it off the car remembers that setting on subsequent restarts. All Ineos has to do is replicate that with both the stop/start system and the ADAS functions.

 

[DrahthHunter]

Maybe I should just keep my low mileage 96 Land Cruiser

 

[Krabby]

Maybe I should just keep my low mileage 96 Land Cruiser

80-series are wonderful looking trucks. Besides the Defender I think they’re the best looking wagon/SUV. (Bar the IG)

 

[stickshifter]

Please keep OTA updates away from from my Grenadier.

If someone bricks my car, I want it to be sitting in a service bay. Vehicles have had surprise downgrades and partial cripplings by OTA updates. Recently, Polestar and Rivian. (New and inexperienced carmakers ... see a pattern that INEOS matches?)

When you allow Authorized Entities to reconfigure/upgrade/downgrade/disable your vehicle, you're basically allowing Anyone Who Discovers The Key to do it. Best case, it's only a good-intentioned but clumsy manufacturer. Worst case, it's warrantless law enforcement, three-letter-agencies, hackers, car thieves, and malicious jackasses.

If you build a door, assume keys for its lock will be found and you can never lock it properly again.

I was warning about all this stuff on the forum a year ago. Its good to see that these issues are finally gaining some traction, though I worry that it is too late for the Grenadier. Since Benjamin Franklin must have been talking about OTA updates, ADAS, and other "active safety systems" - "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Yes, there are too many car accidents, and I can understand why anyone who has lost a loved one to a car accident would want to see as many safety features as possible mandated by law. But I think there are ways to make the roads safer that are less invasive, and that do not expose the public to potential abuse at the hands of hackers, or some form of government overreach. I also understand that not everyone sees this issue in the same way. Each of us has our own perspective, shaped by our own life experiences. I am a combat veteran who was deployed downrange in two theaters during the Cold War. I have seen the consequences when governments take away individual liberty in the name of some "greater good", and its never good.

 

[Deleted member 9047666 (user closed account)]

I had an in-depth discussion with the representative. But there is little she can do other than pass my displeasure along to the engineers. I did however write a response to them expressing my frustration and the frustration of many within North America over their reluctance to change this issue.

At some point I think they will have to listen. Thank you for doing this,

When people start doing real review videos on YouTube with ADAS on, it will be out of their control at that point.