Americas The big May 17 Announcement / Pricing / Discussion thread.

[ChasingOurTrunks]

I’m in the UK so seeing this as it’s a high intensity thread in the days after the price announcement

am I right that the pricing is causing a lot stateside to drop out

Kinda -

The summary so far:

Americans are upset and expected it to be cheaper. Some are dropping out but it’s not clear if it’s any more/less than the 50% expected. Americans are actually getting the same value for money as the Australians more or less. So whatever happened after the announcement in Australia is likely to similarly happen in America. There are 330 million of them after all - surely a few thousand will proceed with purchase.

Canadians got more of a sticker shock and we spent all our money on pointy sticks to fend off the polar bears, so we don’t have the same “it’s the same as Australia” value proposition here and the Gren is looking like it’ll cost a lot more loonies here than we expected. There will likely be more attrition in Canada, but TBD.

And South Africans are getting the best deal on Big Macs, and some people prefer Porches to Civics and vise versa.

How’d I do with that summary of 30 pages, gents?

 

[stickshifter]

Okay, now that I’ve had 24 hours to calm down, digest the price, the configuration options and read through the comments here, here is my second take as an early hand raiser, an evangelist and an unabashed enthusiast of the Grenadier vision.

TLDR: I am now revising my position to cautiously IN. Caveats being the fuel consumption and final dealer shenanigans.
---------------------------------------------------------


Now for the long rambling version:


I think the price is a small sticking point. It is $10K too much but in the grand scheme of owning a car for 10+ years, not a big deal. The VALUE however, for ~$90K (as I specced it Trialmaster + winch + sliders + some small key things and base color white) is just barely there. If it had been priced 10K less for the same config, it would have been a home run. I also feel like the value of individual component prices are a bit on the higher side. More on that in the final considerations below



Going back to an earlier post by @ChasingOurTrunks , in the US, try to find another vehicle which is as stoutly built, as capable, comes ready from factory for travel (you literally don’t need anything, not even different tires, to take it to the remotest of places..only Jeep Rubicon and maybe 4Runner TRD Pro can have the same claim). So let me have my own take in examining a few other vehicles with my lens on what I value. I am gonna look primarily at Wagons and not Trucks/ Utes (the use case that I care for and have researched for)

My build plan/ considerations for each of these vehicles including the Gren would be
- Ripping off the rear seats for storage and sleeping platform and interior habitation
- Metal F&R bumpers and sliders for tighter angles and better bump protection
- Raised air intake for cleaner, cooler air
- Aux electrics for fridge and backup. Maybe one set of low mounted lights for night conditions but nothing crazy like light bars
- Focus on habitation and travel needs rather than crazy off roading


Used LC200:

Pros: This is the vehicle I’d buy if I wasn’t getting the Gren. Stout build quality, excellent dealer and after market support, under stressed engine, reliable drivetrain and decent interiors and more spacious than a Gren. Pretty decent payload at ~1750 Lbs

Cons: Expensive..it makes the Grenadier look positively cheap once you factor locking diffs, metal bumpers, larger tires, Aux electrical, etc. Used LC200 <50K miles + outfitting it = ~$100K and potentially adding a lot of weight
The tank range (fuel economy 13 US mpg X tank size 25 gal = 325 miles) like a Grenadier is pathetic..but very very good after market options. More on this later


Lexus GX460 (Prado with a V8 Petrol):

Pros: Build quality and reliability is downright amazing. The V8 is under stressed and has gobs of power and quite decent fuel economy at 16 mpg. The payload is pretty good, ~1700 lbs because its a 7 seater

Cons: After market support is present but scarce. You can get bumpers, sliders and aux tank done..so there’s that. They key for the GX is that, modding is absolutely necessary and it is a pain the arse to mod. In stock form, its awesome capability is hidden under a tinsel of fake chrome and plastic which needs to be cut off if you want to get better departure and approach angles. You need to cut off interior trim to remove the 3rd row seats and build a platform. After buying it new and then outfitting it you are close to $80-90K again. If not a LC200 this would be my next choice in tie with the 4Runner


Toyota 4Runner:

Pros: A lot cheaper platform (~$60K for a TRD Pro) and is eminently due to be upgraded to the next iteration. The current version with the 4.0L V6 and 5 speed transmission is super reliable but decidedly old school in its power delivery and capacity.

Again an amazing after market that IMHO allows tasteful modifications to make it travel ready (aux tank, stream lined bumpers, sliders, etc.) without making it an over the top brodozer. This is a good value truck where you can buy it new and outfit it for travel at about ~$70-80K (sneezingly close to the Grenadier)
Pretty decent payload for its size ~1550 lbs

Cons:The frame and foundations are strong but not Land Cruiser/ Grenadier stout. I personally find the interior just about ok and borderline cramped.


Jeep Wrangler Rubicon 3.6:

Pros: I still think this is the king of the road when it comes to modify-ability, after market support and hard core 4 wheeling.

The 3.6 Pentastar is the only engine I’d take. It’s proven reliable (especially paired to the 8 speed ZF box). The HEMI in the 390, the 3.0 Diesel are all having issues; the 4xe with the 2.0 turbo seems anemic in petrol only mode. The 3.6 is due to be replaced with the new Hurricane engines soon. Jury is out on their reliability.

Probably the only other vehicle outside the Grenadier and 4Runner TRD which is ready to be taken anywhere right out of the showroom

The stock tank range is ok-ish but the aftermarket has good support here

Cons: Shite payload. The Rubicon has ~1100 lbs, the Diesel and 390, I think, have ~800-900lbs. Absolutely piss poor. I am a big guy at 220 lbs and 6’. To me the interior is quite cramped for me

Both these factors make it a no go for me. The Jeep is probably the only true ‘cheaper’ option to the Grenadier by about $10-$15K..but is no where as stoutly built or comfortable


Shorter summaries on other considerations:

Ford Bronco:
In paper an awesome vehicle..but having dealt with multiple Ford dealers earlier..I will categorically NEVER buy another Ford car till they come up with a different engagement model. And secondly, they need to ask their bean counters to bugger off. The interiors of a Bronco are shockingly appalling.


Toyota Sequoia TRD:
I have looked long and hard at the Sequoia. It seems spacious and has the same underpinnings of the LC300. However, the electrical architecture is a bit untested in terms of reliability and secondly, its eats a lot into interior space for a sleeping build out. The payload is poor at ~1550 lbs, given its size, And, Finally, price wise you are back at $80K and above before even shedding the plastic and a basic build out


LR Defender 110:
I love Land Rovers..used to have a Range Rover P38 for the longest time. Believe it or not it was a pretty reliable truck all things considered. I’ve had more things to fix in my G-Wagen than the P38, but the P38 wasn’t used for hard travel and camping..it was a city grocery getter.

But the P38 was way more mechanical and analog than the new Defender. I just can’t wrap my head around air bag issues (which is exactly the one thing that broke in my P38), the electronics, etc. And god I hate the design. Gerry McGovern..what paint thinner were you inhaling when you designed it?

So the new Defender is out.


Now, Lets talk fuel economy and mileage:
I am generally not a big fan of the archaic EPA..but the one thing they seem to get right is the real life fuel economy for vehicles in real life driving conditions. Their estimates for the LC200, Jeep 3.6, 4Runner and GX460 are spot on based on my experience. So I am inclined to believe the 14/ 14/ 14 US mpg number unless Ineos revises it drastically. 14 US mpg X 23.5 Gal tank = 329 miles of range. Unless there is immediate after market support for this to extend it to 5-600 miles, it’s a surefire no go for me. And let’s not forget, this is a petrol not a diesel car. So off-road, the 14 mpg is more like 10 mpg.

More in Part 2 below

Great and thorough post. That was a good read. One thing didn't really make sense to me though: you mentioned that you feel cramped sometimes in the 4-Runner, and that you are strongly considering the Grenadier as an alternative. We own a 4-Runner and I sat in the Grenadier for quite a while back in August 2022, and I drove it twice in April 2023. The Grenadier is notably less spacious than the 4-Runner. The driver's seat is roomier in the 4-Runner (seat width, shoulder room, elbow-room), and the passenger seat is much roomier (especially in the foot-well). I've posted comparison pictures in the past, and won't do that again. Just curious what you are thinking as I know you are a pretty thoughtful and calculating guy.

 

[STACHES]

How much interior space on the Jeep and Tacoma? What are the noise levels at 80 mph on the interstate on the way to an off-road adventure? You can't fix either of those for $30k. The IG is not a Jeep or Tacoma replacement. If the Jeep and / or Tacoma meet your needs / desires, then there is no reason to look at the IG at all.

I didn't say it was a Jeep or Taco replacement. I was saying the new Tacoma specs (boxed ladder frame, multi link suspension, adjustable fox dampers and bump stops, 326hp and 465 torques) gives me hope for what the new 4runner will be like.

 

[jeremy_matrix]

As per the Ineos website: "We know you might want to do some work yourself. So, we’ve designed and engineered the Grenadier to be easy to work on inside and out. To help you we’ll provide online repair manuals, with support from the technical team at INEOS HQ just a call or a click away". Does not sound like they are going to be sticklers for dealer installation of fairly basic accessories.

Very true.

Still perplexed why IA would have options listed in the configurator, that aren't also INSTALLED for the listed price. (Or a clear defining note that they don't install rubber floor mats but they do install safari windows).

 

[DaveB]

The build and ride quality are indeed fantastic. But when justifying the price tag, keep in mind that Ineos has saved money by cutting back on a ton of other features, including smart/driver assist functionality and cabin comforts. I'm on board with that design philosophy, but I'm not sure that it justifies the relatively high price. Steel is cheaper than software.

Ultimately, this is a low production vehicle and given the unaggressive pricing, I'm not sure that Ineos plans on expanding Grenadier production in the future. I'm coming around to the idea that this is probably a one-time-deal boutique 4x4. Would love to be proved wrong on that.

What other driver assistance packages do you want?
It's doing everything but scratching your arse and picking your nose for you

 

[REOhio]

I’m in the UK so seeing this as it’s a high intensity thread in the days after the price announcement

am I right that the pricing is causing a lot stateside to drop out

Yes. Quite a large number.

 

[Shopkeep]

Very true.

Still perplexed why IA would have options listed in the configurator, that aren't also INSTALLED for the listed price. (Or a clear defining note that they don't install rubber floor mats but they do install safari windows).

Unlike agency markets the US dealers would be buying the accessories at wholesale and make a reasonable margin selling them at the list price with the vehicle. If they are then charging some kind of overall dealer delivery or PDI fee then I would have thought this should also cover fitting the accessories. To me the revenue from the accessory sale and the overall fees should easily mean fitting should be included.

The big advantage you have in the US is if the Grenadier is over priced and that reduces demand you can then go to your local dealer and haggle a better deal/price instead of paying retail. However I think that is unlikely as demand from your huge market will easily exceed the relatively low quantity supplied.

 

[DaveB]

Yes. Quite a large number.

Can you please provide the exact numbers of people who have a reservation and how many have cancelled that reservation since the pricing was released.
People who haven't already placed a reservation but have posted somewhere that they are now dropping out and not going ahead are just dummy spitting and not canceling their commitment

 

[Sillius Soddus]

I did that because I want the steelies on basically a Fieldmaster. Can’t add premium audio when speccing up a base but you can’t add auxiliary battery to the FM. Price was essenti the same, no discount for starting from base

Did you spec the inverter? I played around with the configurator a bit, and can spec winch and premium sound on a base station wagon so long as I skip the inverter.

 

[REOhio]

Can you please provide the exact numbers of people who have a reservation and how many have cancelled that reservation since the pricing was released.
People who haven't already placed a reservation but have posted somewhere that they are now dropping out and not going ahead are just dummy spitting and not canceling their commitment

we do not have access to that level of data. We’re just users like you. One FB poll, for whatever that is worth, showed nearly 70% rate of cancellation. INEOS was apparently expecting 40-45% cancellation rate. The prices here are causing much concern. As is the fuel mileage.

 

[DaveB]

we do not have access to that level of data. We’re just users like you. One FB poll, for whatever that is worth, showed nearly 70% rate of cancellation. INEOS was apparently expecting 40-45% cancellation rate. The prices here are causing much concern. As is the fuel mileage.

FB polls are worth every dollar they cost
One of the dummy spitters on FB turned out to be a 20 year old college student from Houston who was just a shit stirrer.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

I think you are exaggerating a bit. There is an enormous gulf between being able to comfortably pay cash for an IG and flying private. Most multimillionaires don‘t fly private

You are certainly correct on that gap and I can see how my post would give you the impression that I was saying only folks who can afford private jets can afford a gren. That’s not what I meant and I was intentional with my words for that reason - “flown private more than I have” — I was specifically thinking about some folks I know who have tons of capital and invest in businesses and are in the “millionaire” to “multi, multi millionaire” level. I know these folks have flown private — a Board of Directors charters a private jet to go to a retreat/board meeting somewhere tropical, or they all fly together to assess the next project that’s going to be making them money. They don’t own the jets — there’s a few more “Multi’s” before “millionaire” to reach that class! — but they have flown private more than I have (my number of times on a private jet is at, and will likely remain at, zero). And these folks have lots of capital available. They don’t “work” for a living in the traditional sense - they “own” for a living, and that’s the start of the economic class of people who can easily pay cash for a Grenadier.

I contrast that with the next richest group, right below the “owner” group I just spoke of: the professional class - doctors, engineers, etc. Not too many of them make north of $300k, and those that do often are in very high cost of living areas - Vancouver and Toronto, for instance - and many will be carrying mortgages on homes worth millions in our crazy market. That puts a damper on free cash flow where even that group would have to think twice about taking on a $2300/month car payment; there’s lots of Range Rovers and G Wagens around so obviously some folks have the kind of resources to spend big on cars, but it’s a pretty small market and not at all reflective of the “typical” Canadian.

Very, very few of us have $130k cash to spend on a car. We might have that in non liquid assets, like homes and stocks, but that becomes a very different sort of decision. Some people will sell a bunch of their Apple shares to invest in a Grenadier. Not very many.

So, I think my point stands — if this was a sub-6 figure car and was priced proportionally to the competition like it is in other countries, then the type of person who would be looking at a Defender or a nice Jeep would also be looking at the Grenadier, and the Grenadier would come up as the top pick technically which would, for many people, justify paying a bit more for it. This is the situation in the USA in my opinion.

But at these prices in Canada, they will be attracting the type of person who is looking at Range Rovers and G-Wagens. That’s a different sector of our population, and since they are already served by the “Luxury” SUVs that come with 22” wheels, lots of leather, high technology, and a premium brand identity, it’s too bad the Gren is playing alongside them in Canada instead of being at the top of the pack of the kinds of cars middle class folks can actually consider.

 

[Bruce]

I didn't say it was a Jeep or Taco replacement. I was saying the new Tacoma specs (boxed ladder frame, multi link suspension, adjustable fox dampers and bump stops, 326hp and 465 torques) gives me hope for what the new 4runner will be like.

Based on the Tacoma news I've seen, the 4runner will be at least as loveably ugly as my gen 5 is, but be less underpowered.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

How much interior space on the Jeep and Tacoma? What are the noise levels at 80 mph on the interstate on the way to an off-road adventure? You can't fix either of those for $30k. The IG is not a Jeep or Tacoma replacement. If the Jeep and / or Tacoma meet your needs / desires, then there is no reason to look at the IG at all.

Interior space? Enough for a driver. Put the rest in the exterior.



Road noise?



That’ll be $35 for the garbage bags and earplugs, plus $29,900 for my consultation fee. Look! You still have $65 left over!

Teasing of course and I actually agree with you completely — some problems cannot be fixed with the money saved. But, folks will compromise on just how big of a deal those problems are for the kind of money we are talking about.

 

[DaveB]

You are certainly correct on that gap and I can see how my post would give you the impression that I was saying only folks who can afford private jets can afford a gren. That’s not what I meant and I was intentional with my words for that reason - “flown private more than I have” — I was specifically thinking about some folks I know who have tons of capital and invest in businesses and are in the “millionaire” to “multi, multi millionaire” level. I know these folks have flown private — a Board of Directors charters a private jet to go to a retreat/board meeting somewhere tropical, or they all fly together to assess the next project that’s going to be making them money. They don’t own the jets — there’s a few more “Multi’s” before “millionaire” to reach that class! — but they have flown private more than I have (my number of times on a private jet is at, and will likely remain at, zero). And these folks have lots of capital available. They don’t “work” for a living in the traditional sense - they “own” for a living, and that’s the start of the economic class of people who can easily pay cash for a Grenadier.

I contrast that with the next richest group, right below the “owner” group I just spoke of: the professional class - doctors, engineers, etc. Not too many of them make north of $300k, and those that do often are in very high cost of living areas - Vancouver and Toronto, for instance - and many will be carrying mortgages on homes worth millions in our crazy market. That puts a damper on free cash flow where even that group would have to think twice about taking on a $2300/month car payment; there’s lots of Range Rovers and G Wagens around so obviously some folks have the kind of resources to spend big on cars, but it’s a pretty small market and not at all reflective of the “typical” Canadian.

Very, very few of us have $130k cash to spend on a car. We might have that in non liquid assets, like homes and stocks, but that becomes a very different sort of decision. Some people will sell a bunch of their Apple shares to invest in a Grenadier. Not very many.

So, I think my point stands — if this was a sub-6 figure car and was priced proportionally to the competition like it is in other countries, then the type of person who would be looking at a Defender or a nice Jeep would also be looking at the Grenadier, and the Grenadier would come up as the top pick technically which would, for many people, justify paying a bit more for it. This is the situation in the USA in my opinion.

But at these prices in Canada, they will be attracting the type of person who is looking at Range Rovers and G-Wagens. That’s a different sector of our population, and since they are already served by the “Luxury” SUVs that come with 22” wheels, lots of leather, high technology, and a premium brand identity, it’s too bad the Gren is playing alongside them in Canada instead of being at the top of the pack of the kinds of cars middle class folks can actually consider.

You can finance the purchase, you don't have to pay cash.
You could finance 50% (whatever %) with a trade in vehicle
You can finance with a final balloon payment after 5 years so again you are only financing 50/60/70%
Many people, like me, get a car allowance from a company to provide a vehicle so if I chose to finance 50% of it then my loan repayments would be $960/month out of the $1,500/month I get for a car allowance
You can work out any other percentages you want but that doesn't make me rich.
Out of interest many people who drive expensive cars and private planes don't own them, they lease them, usually through a company they own, and claim it as a business expense

 

[stickshifter]

In Australia a common 4wd trip will include a long drive over corrugations
This will test any vehicle (including Toyotas)
There is no way you would do it in a Jeep without significant modifications or with any faith that it won't fall apart
I am a lot more confident that the Grenadiers suspension and components will stand up to it.
We shall have to wait and see.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTE4On69kXQ

This is gonna hurt, but lookie here:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UR6agkRbT4

 

[STACHES]

Based on the Tacoma news I've seen, the 4runner will be at least as loveably ugly as my gen 5 is, but be less underpowered.

I'm not sold on the interior yet, but I think they did better on the outside this time.

View: https://youtu.be/X04Z1AAU_qc

 

[2wheelfish]

I just specced out the exact build of Bronco my brother has, and it came out to $69,000. While cheaper, it is still in the ballpark of the Grenadier.

I recall my dad looking into LC200s back in 2017/2018. They were asking $84,000 back then, and so I just optioned out a similar spec current generation Sequoia TRD. it came to $86,000 (no, I did not check every box… far from it, really) and that doesn’t even have lockers.

While some say that you could buy X or Y vehicle and have so much $$$ left over, I think they may be looking at the base prices of those vehicles, and rarely does anyone buy the straight base vehicle.

I don’t think Ineos is horribly off here. Yes, I wanted it to be 5k less, but it’s still in the ballpark of acceptable looking at a host of other offerings.

Well we both say something similar, but arrive at different conclusions. To me, a $69k bronco and an $85k gren aren’t in the same ballpark. That’s almost 25% more, and I’m not sold yet that we are getting 25% more value. Unproven reliability, no demonstrated service, brand-named parts for sure, but they may be OEM quality and not equivalent to the aftermarket quality that the name is known for. Yes, I’m not a disciple yet, but I’m working on a justification. The main thing that tips the scales is that it’s damn near impossible to get a bronco, let alone at that $69k MSRP.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

You can finance the purchase, you don't have to pay cash.
You could finance 50% (whatever %) with a trade in vehicle
You can finance with a final balloon payment after 5 years so again you are only financing 50/60/70%
Many people, like me, get a car allowance from a company to provide a vehicle so if I chose to finance 50% of it then my loan repayments would be $960/month out of the $1,500/month I get for a car allowance
You can work out any other percentages you want but that doesn't make me rich.
Out of interest many people who drive expensive cars and private planes don't own them, they lease them, usually through a company they own, and claim it as a business expense

Absolutely - 100% finance isn’t required, and some number of people go shopping for cars with tens of thousands of bucks in their pocket for a down payment to reduce the financing amount. There’s lots of ways a person can make the numbers work for them, and that’s evidenced by the (admittedly small) number of G Wagens, Range Rovers, etc. on the roads here in Canada, so obviously there’s folks who can afford them, and who can also afford the Grenadier - but the Gren shouldn’t be playing in the class of Range Rovers and G Wagens.

When the average income in the country is $65k per year, folks who are buying G Wagens and Range Rovers are rich. This is distinct from the middle class — we’re buying Fords and Jeeps. The upper middle class — or those who are “just” normal middle class but willing to really focus resources because that’s how they choose to live — are buying Defenders at the lower end of the specs. But the Gren, at these Canadian prices, is out of reach of a lot of folks, even if they are upper middle class and focus their resources.

I think down south it’s much more “expensive 4x4 in the realm of middle- to upper-middle class affordability, but the Gren gives good value”. Up here the pricing makes it harder for the “good value” argument to stick.

And my overall point is — not many people in Canada have the kind of discretionary budget to spend $136k on a car. Lots more people have the ability to spend around $90k on a car, and that would proportionally be a more consistent price when compared to the competition and the way the Gren is priced in other markets.

 

[bmore_burnsy]

Did you spec the inverter? I played around with the configurator a bit, and can spec winch and premium sound on a base station wagon so long as I skip the inverter.

I also spec'd a base to get the steelies (rather than start with a FM). I spec'd the inverter but not premium sound. The aux battery and premium sound subwoofer occupy the same location under the rear seat, so you cannot have both from the factory.