Towing and Payload: Gren vs. Others

[DaveB]

If can tell you that EVERYONE will go for a GVM upgrade option if it saves them $10,000 plus plus in taxes.

Even if a GVM upgrade option costs $2,500 to uprate the springs and shocks. Surely the axles and brakes would be up to handling another few hundred kg.  Lovells and ARB GVM upgrades to the LC200 dont change the brakes.

If you dont like the ride after the GVM Upgrade, then buy the standard springs and shocks, put them back in the Grenadier, and you will still save yourself thousands and thousands.

If they could guarantee me a good ride on road i would happily go with a GVM upgrade and some 35's 
I don't need it and may never use it but I would rather give my money to a company than the government

 

[stickshifter]

For folks here in the States - I think GVM upgrades in Australia are more easily accomplished than in the U.S. From what I understand, it is nearly impossible here. The term we use here is Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) - we don't use "Gross Vehicle Mass" (GVM). Making a legal change to GVWR requires recertification by some government agency, and it is a long and expensive process. My understanding of this is based on various secondary sources I have read, not on any actual experience with the process myself. Feel free to research, and correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Shopkeep]

SLR may well be developing suspension upgrades, but I think GVM upgrades coming from an after market /dealership position would be quite some time coming.  The R&D engineering dollars wouldn't be worth it for these guys based on the volumes would be horrendous.

We need to let INEOS Australia know that there is a huge market in Australia for a higher payload. Hopefully then, they can arrange one, even if it is an optional extra for us all. Hopefully they hear the message and ask Head Office for more.

This is another is big reason why they should, as it's main competitors have GVM upgrade options ready to go already that can be done prior to first registration. These Toyota competitors are the ones that INEOS are hoping to steal overland, camping, towing customers from, and without more payload options for many years - then they will have their hands further tied until they do provide more payload.

Australian’s perception that the payload was going to be 1000kg may be based on this which appeared in our press (but I think it was taken from a Grenadier press release) in July 2020;

“In keeping with Ratcliffe’s vision, the Grenadier’s key ‘must-haves’ read like an off-road enthusiast’s wishlist: mechanical two-speed transfer case; 1000kg payload and a minimum 3500kg towing capacity; “fenders you can sit on”; wheel at each corner stance; external storage; external spare wheel; and “open source” electrical and accessory platforms.”

The Australian specs do list the kerb weight as 3550kgs whereas all other country specs list it as 3500kgs. The 3550kg rating means it may be classed in Aus as a NB1 class vehicle which is described as a “Medium Goods Vehicle”.  Not sure exactly what this means from a tax perspective (ie luxury car tax / depreciation / GST) but it must be a deliberate action.  

 

[Davman]

There was A LOT of press about the 1000kg payload, and this is what first interested me.

I hope that the 3550kg (Medium Commercial Vehicle) is there to make it a commercial vehicle, however I think it has more to do with it requiring less safety gear on a delivery van, than you do on passenger car. Landcruiser also upped the GVM on their old 70 series to accomplish a similar thing.

However I hope I all wrong.

If INEOS customer service replies to emails, then we may be somewhat the wiser.

 

[Davman]

Well I know I had read something somewhere sometime about INEOS APAC wanting a different vehicle classification in Australia.  I finally found the article.
https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/ineos-grenadier-sold-out-until-2023-132870/

The point of interest reads:
Hocevar said the hope is to obtain NB1 certification for the Grenadier in Australia, which allows for a gross vehicle mass above 3500kg and classifies it as a commercial vehicle.
“Our preference is for it to be a true commercial vehicle,” he said.Various modified off-roaders and motorhomes use the NB1 classification, as do the Mercedes-Benz Sprinter and Volkswagen Crafter.
Yes were right the 3550kg appears to be specifically to push it into the NB1 - Medium Goods Vehicle category.

It also appears that NB1 vehicles are classified a commercial vehicle, and as such wont have the LCT applied. I have read posts on GVM upgrade suppliers websites  that confirm the same point.  No LCT on NB1 vehicles.
Motorhomes are NB1, and they do not pay LCT.

So if this gets confirmed, then I believe that INEOS have ticked the box - once again.  Hats off to Justin.

 

[Disco Dave]

I saw a picture of an aerial mounted on the rear ladder. Folds down vertically.

 

[DaveB]

One of the issue I could see is that the rear doors are so large that there isn't anywhere to mount work lights or accessories on the roof at the back. 
Going to have to put them on a roof rack 

   

 

[Chester]

I had a read of the ATO website and there was no mention of this NB1 vehicle class and it’s exclusion from LCT. It seems the vehicles main purpose should be for carrying goods rather than passengers to qualify for an exemption in LCT. I think that’s how utes and vans get away with this but I am not sure if the Grenadier will qualify but I am no expert. 

 

[DaveB]

 

https://www.infrastructure.gov.au/sites/default/files/migrated/vehicles/design/files/ADR_Applicability_Summary-N-Group-January20.pdf
https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2021L01629

 

[Red pepper]

When I asked "INEOS" about Luxury car tax in Australia this is what I got back :

 

 

[grenadierboy]

Chester -

This is what I wrote last week on the Australian LCT - it's about the load carrying capacity of the vehicle, together with it's main purpose (i.e. passenger or loads):

------------------

OK. Luxury car Tax.

I am in the "weeds" here but, basically, LCT in Australia does not apply to a vehicle that has a load capacity of more than 2 tonnes. This rules out the Grenadier of course.

However, vehicles that have a load carrying capacity of less than two tonnes and are designed to carry BOTH passengers and goods, may still be exempt from LCT if the main purpose of such a vehicle is to carry goods not passengers.

This "main purpose" is broadly determined by the available payload capacity after deducting a specific weight ascribed to passengers.

To work out the load carrying capacity of a vehicle that can carry both passengers and goods, you multiply total seating capacity by 68kg (5 persons for the Grenadier) arriving at 340kg. 

Then, if the total passenger weight is more than 50% of the total load weight of the vehicle, the principal purpose of the vehicle is to carry passengers not goods and thus LCT applies.

 

[DaveB]

You might need to go back to them and explain we don't have VAT in Australia
When you send an email to them make sure you change the country code at the bottom from United Kingdom to Australia
Your emails should then go to Ineos Australia

 

[Davman]

Today I confirmed with a modifier of vehicles in Australia, that when you go to over 3550kg GVM, then the vehicle does change class to NB1.
If your vehicle is classified NB1 prior to it being registered for the first time, the vehicle will be exempt from LCT.

Now to wait and see if this is what INEOS APAC have arranged.

 

[Davman]

Hi Guys.  Onto my favourite topic again - must be the inner accountant in me.

I found this article on the ATO website, which seems to be a DRAFT TAX ruling in regards to Luxury Car Tax - published in the last few months. 
Certainly interesting ready.
https://www.ato.gov.au/law/view/document?DocID=DLD/LCTD2022D1/NAT/ATO/00001

It is written from the perspective of the car dealer (INEOS) as to whether they need to charge LCT on the vehicle or not on DUAL CAB/UTILITY Vehicles.
Points 12,13,29,30,31,32 are pertinent.

Based on these points, let me take the worst case scenario in Australia where we are buying the 5 seat diesel.
The passenger capacity weight of the 5 seater is 340kg (5x68kg)

The payload (Vehicle Load Capacity) is 810kg. (Difference between GVM and Unladen Mass(Kerb Weight)) 
810kg x 50% = 405kg.

405kg is greater than 340kg - So the determination could be made that the primary purpose of this vehicle is to carry goods.

NOW - Granted this is under the heading of DUAL CAB UTILITIES.

HOWEVER  point 15,16 of the Document deals with OTHER VEHICLES - (Which is probably the category where the station wagon fits into)
This deals with a lot in regards to how the vehicle has been marketed, promoted, payloads etc as to whether it becomes a commercial vehicle or not.

Which is probably why we see the 2 Seater being marketed as a Utility - however it is not unforseeable that the 5 Seater could also qualify for a LCT exemption - all going the right way.

Interesting times, but I suppose we will  have to wait until the 18th at least to see what tack INEOS have taken on all of this - and what Exemptions INEOS have requested the ATO to make in regards to the INEOS - much like Toyota did with the LC70.

 

[Disco Dave]

So it would seem that the 2 seat version is in the clear re LCT.

 

[Stu_Barnes]

moved topic

 

[Davman]

This is why INEOS APAC went with a 3550GVM.
https://www.news.com.au/technology/motoring/motoring-news/why-toyota-says-the-landcruiser-is-no-longer-a-ute/news-story/f28b3fb7c653c40d81534221b13ae881

 

[DCPU]

So is ADR 85 that hard/expensive to pass?

It's understandable using the "loophole" for a legacy vehicle, but why wouldn't compliance with the standard have been part of the spec for the Grenadier?

 

[cheswick]

The Grenadiers weight comes from the gauge of its running gear no doubt. From looking underneath a few times now, the one thing that jumps out to me Is how beefy everything is under there.

I think they will shave a bit of weight off for the final production but don't count on it being sub 2500kg. It's a heavy duty bit of kit.

That’s a trade off I’m willing to take. If I have to choose between weight and ruggedness I’ll take the latter every day. There are plenty of lightweight soft roaders out there, I want the Grenadier because it’s built like a tank.

 

[Spjnr]

That’s a trade off I’m willing to take. If I have to choose between weight and ruggedness I’ll take the latter every day. There are plenty of lightweight soft roaders out there, I want the Grenadier because it’s built like a tank.

Since writing that i've driven a PTO2 Grenadier diesel. Although heavy, its certainly not underpowered, and I'm even more certain that the Grenadier will be right at the top when it comes to vehicles capable of towing 3.5ton comfortably.

For offroad towing, there surely wont be anything better