Stuck at Cape York

[globalgregors]

I'm holding on to my optimism in light of the reliability experience to date of @Global Gregors on the Pan American Hwy and @MattP 's 5 yr round the world odyssey. Every marque has its issues....

Yeah, yeah - cranking on over here, no lights showing. Machu Picchu today.

Pic from yesterday.

 

[Jeremy996]

Why is it their fault? Well they are the ones that can tell us. It doesn't look good if they won't explain it. If I was a grenadier owner I would be keen to find out so I know what not to do!

And personally.. in all the vehicles I've had .. I can never recall a warranty repair where they said "We're going to do a warranty repair... and we're not going to tell you why we're doing it". That's bizarre.

I used to work for the UK's largest extended vehicle warranty insurer/administrator.

All manufacturers would not provide information of their warranty claims for fear of us, (the insurers), pushing back on third party warranty paid on vehicles with a known manufacturing fault.

As we accumulated data on thousands of cars, we were in a position to strong-arm manufacturers where certain faults came up too often. Just the IP on vehicle failures is a valuable asset, so if someone decides to be coy about a failure in the field, I would see it as 'business as usual'.

Going "YouTube" public on a vehicle failure is a risky business - use the vehicle outside of the design parameters and refusal of warranty is almost automatic. Use a vehicle outside of the insurers accepted risks is another automatic refusal of coverage/withdrawal of coverage, with very limited recourse. I would not put anything into the public domain until any and all claims were settled, or I was very sure of my ground.

Like Mercedes and similar manufacturers, Ineos Automotive has done a lot of dealer campaigns, fixing mechanical issues and software on the QT, so a significant part of any service is checking which ones are outstanding on the vehicle in front of them, (while my Gren was having the tow bar fitted, Lloyds wanted to do the lock upgrade, but I knew that Chandlers had just got the bits in stock). Upgrades on the quiet are a fact of vehicular service life these days, with software leading the charge!

 

[DenisM]

I used to work for the UK's largest extended vehicle warranty insurer/administrator.

All manufacturers would not provide information of their warranty claims for fear of us, (the insurers), pushing back on third party warranty paid on vehicles with a known manufacturing fault.

As we accumulated data on thousands of cars, we were in a position to strong-arm manufacturers where certain faults came up too often. Just the IP on vehicle failures is a valuable asset, so if someone decides to be coy about a failure in the field, I would see it as 'business as usual'.

Going "YouTube" public on a vehicle failure is a risky business - use the vehicle outside of the design parameters and refusal of warranty is almost automatic. Use a vehicle outside of the insurers accepted risks is another automatic refusal of coverage/withdrawal of coverage, with very limited recourse. I would not put anything into the public domain until any and all claims were settled, or I was very sure of my ground.

Like Mercedes and similar manufacturers, Ineos Automotive has done a lot of dealer campaigns, fixing mechanical issues and software on the QT, so a significant part of any service is checking which ones are outstanding on the vehicle in front of them, (while my Gren was having the tow bar fitted, Lloyds wanted to do the lock upgrade, but I knew that Chandlers had just got the bits in stock). Upgrades on the quiet are a fact of vehicular service life these days, with software leading the charge!

One of the real strengths of this forum is the worldwide collective knowledge members bring to the fore. Thank you @Jeremy996 for your rational and factual understanding based on professional experience. Most appreciated!
DenisM

 

[NQ94]

Another factor I don’t see mentioned much is that they completed the track the same day - likely at low speed - and then travelled at a faster speed the next day. The sequence looked pretty typical of what can happen after a deep water crossing. If a small amount of water gets into the intake or even into the oil through breathers, the engine can keep running fine for hours — even start normally the next morning — but a bearing or conrod might already be weakened. Once you’re back at higher speeds or load, that’s when it can finally let go in a big way, which is what seemed to happen here with the oil light and the sudden failure.

To me the symptoms are still consistent with water damage. It could be something else. But I think it’s fair to assume that the ‘environmental factors’ is an honest assessment given it was accepted by the insurer.

There’s no reason to suspect conspiracy.

INEOS’s vague response is in the customer’s best interest.

Nothing to see here - let’s move on.

I understand where you are coming from. I spent plenty of time early in my career dealing with, quoting and repairing hydrolocks and water damage to engines in trucks and buses every storm season. I am still in the trade and it still occurs every wet season with trucks and machinery the only difference now it's very easy to hit near a million in damages from water to bogged or flooded machinery.

 

[Tom D]

Well I have just caught up with this thread after a few days, I hadn't seen the images of the water crossing as I don't do Instagram. That has to be water damage! The Grenadier air box pulls from the top, and the bottom of the box sits lower than the intake coming through the wing, There's plenty of space in the box below the filter to hold a litre of water at least. They could have carried on driving for a while before a bit of steep up down or side slope could have allowed the water to slosh up and through the filter. He did say in the now deleted video that they had just gone through a dry creek crossing, which probably had a steep entry and exit.... Easily enough to bring the water from the previous days crossing through the filter and into the engine...

Looking at the air box on mine the air exits towards the front so a downslope or harsh braking would be enough to bring water stuck in the box into the engine.

 

[Logsplitter]

I used to work for the UK's largest extended vehicle warranty insurer/administrator.

All manufacturers would not provide information of their warranty claims for fear of us, (the insurers), pushing back on third party warranty paid on vehicles with a known manufacturing fault.

As we accumulated data on thousands of cars, we were in a position to strong-arm manufacturers where certain faults came up too often. Just the IP on vehicle failures is a valuable asset, so if someone decides to be coy about a failure in the field, I would see it as 'business as usual'.

Going "YouTube" public on a vehicle failure is a risky business - use the vehicle outside of the design parameters and refusal of warranty is almost automatic. Use a vehicle outside of the insurers accepted risks is another automatic refusal of coverage/withdrawal of coverage, with very limited recourse. I would not put anything into the public domain until any and all claims were settled, or I was very sure of my ground.

Like Mercedes and similar manufacturers, Ineos Automotive has done a lot of dealer campaigns, fixing mechanical issues and software on the QT, so a significant part of any service is checking which ones are outstanding on the vehicle in front of them, (while my Gren was having the tow bar fitted, Lloyds wanted to do the lock upgrade, but I knew that Chandlers had just got the bits in stock). Upgrades on the quiet are a fact of vehicular service life these days, with software leading the charge!

Jeremy I really appreciate your insight into this. I do not want to derail this thread so am going to place my response in a failed prop shaft thread as it’s more relevant to that. There are certain mechanical issue that shouldn’t be kept quiet or updated on the quiet. Thanks again for your insight.

 

[AWo]

First of all, bad to see such a trip ends this way. Bad thing at all. Sad for all involved. Glad to see that the group stuck together. I saw groups falling apart after a comparable incident. Maybe because you're not in real danger in Europe, when you get stuck somewhere. Maybe the mindset is different in Australia, due to the challenges the country throws at you.

I.M.H.O. it would be really interesting to know the exact cause. Was it really the water (they drove quite some time after the crossing, didn't they???). Has he hit something? Does something just broke? But I can understand if the involved parties are quit. Maybe one should just leave it that way and all need to live with that. Maybe forever, maybe just for now....in the end everybody is responsible for himself to prepare the car, to assess the risk and then you take your decision to drive it or not, knowing that something can go wrong always. But not always it's the fault of others (but sometimes it really is). You're always smarter afterwards. Going offroading always contains that risk of ending up with a damage, costs and hopefully nothing worse...make your mind up accordingly.

"If it runs according to the plan, it isn't called adventure"

Having said that, regarding the insurance...sometimes it is a matter of finding the right words...if possible...when I "produced"this by my own complete stupid driving fault, fourteen years ago...

...I was "driving during a camping event on public accessible ways, where I do not have to pay a fee to be able to drive there". It was an offroad park and we were camping with others and driving offroad. You can access the park without paying as there are no barriers, but you have to pay if you go offroad, of course. The things important to get it covered were: a) not a driving event on non-official roads, b) the ways are de-facto accessible and I do not have to pay to access it, or better no barrier can hold me back if I do not pay. Of course I have paid, but I could have driven there without. That did the trick and all damage was covered.

BTW, we put it back on its feet again, let it standing calm for one night. Checked the engine tubes and everything for oil and water, did a few cold turns by pushing the car in fourth gear without starting the engine. Then I started it and everything was fine. I went back offroading and drove home the next day. Happy, the engine has now 470.000 km...and still running.

AWo

 

[DesertGecko]

Sure, but we don't do deep water crossings without a snorkel. What car on sale in Australia (including your old school defender) would cross water that far above its wading depth without a snorkel. We're hard on our equipment here, yes, but this is not that.

I've watched the video now. It's deep but I've seen worse. I see the car didn't have a RAI. I would definitely have a RAI for the cape. I do not know why they aren't standard like on the 70 series.

Anyway the thing I'm having trouble with is if an engine sucks water it stops there and then. This car drove for the rest of the day and then blew up leaving camp. Very odd. Delayed hydraulic lock destruction.

Is there any chance it was water in the fuel? This delayed failure seems to be more suggestive of that. IMO. But I guess we'll never know.

 

[NQ94]

I've watched the video now. It's deep but I've seen worse. I see the car didn't have a RAI. I would definitely have a RAI for the cape. I do not know why they aren't standard like on the 70 series.

Anyway the thing I'm having trouble with is if an engine sucks water it stops there and then. This car drove for the rest of the day and then blew up leaving camp. Very odd. Delayed hydraulic lock destruction.

Is there any chance it was water in the fuel? This delayed failure seems to be more suggestive of that. IMO. But I guess we'll never know.

70 series rai isn't very water tight, it's got foam slip together seals a join near the a pillar.

 

[DesertGecko]

70 series rai isn't very water tight, it's got foam slip together seals a join near the a pillar.

It's a known thing. Easy fix.

 

[TheDocAUS]

70 series rai isn't very water tight, it's got foam slip together seals a join near the a pillar.

70 series also has lots of aftermarket options for snorkels. Many people skip the OEM RAI and just buy a third party option, which are better at keeping out water.

 

[MrMike]

ANY vehicle that is blatantly driven into water that exceeds the manufacturers max will never be covered by a warranty, and you shouldnt expect it to.
why this stops you from considering buying a Grenadier is beyond me.
You think Toyota would warranty this? i have heard stories of a Hilux driven on a beach, cracked a rim and toyota denied warranty as it was offroad!

We do not know what Ineos communicated to Canny and co, everything thing they said in the video i suspect was click bait and your falling for it
they have hidden evidence, lied and embellished to get views.
if you use this video to come up with an excuse to not purchase a Grenadier then perhaps you should follow the Sheeple and go Toyota, just make sure you fit a immobilizer.

regarding replacement engine price, 65k, i suspect thats everything including the tow costs, a quick google tells me a B58 is 30k, a Toyota V8 is 20k from a aftermarket supplier

The story of the couple on YT that destroyed their 300 series engine towing 3.5t on the beach. Toyota said nup!

Well I have just caught up with this thread after a few days, I hadn't seen the images of the water crossing as I don't do Instagram. That has to be water damage! The Grenadier air box pulls from the top, and the bottom of the box sits lower than the intake coming through the wing, There's plenty of space in the box below the filter to hold a litre of water at least. They could have carried on driving for a while before a bit of steep up down or side slope could have allowed the water to slosh up and through the filter. He did say in the now deleted video that they had just gone through a dry creek crossing, which probably had a steep entry and exit.... Easily enough to bring the water from the previous days crossing through the filter and into the engine...

Looking at the air box on mine the air exits towards the front so a downslope or harsh braking would be enough to bring water stuck in the box into the engine.

I thought that this is the possible cause, if you have seen the shape of the air box leading to the filter box you'll understand that it has little chance of draining out.

 

[NQ94]

70 series also has lots of aftermarket options for snorkels. Many people skip the OEM RAI and just buy a third party option, which are better at keeping out water.

Bunnings looks like a good place to start. Maybe they can do a Tradies Choice snorkel for the Grenadier.

 

[MrMike]

Bunnings looks like a good place to start. Maybe they can do a Tradies Choice snorkel for the Grenadier.
View attachment 7914990

Is there anything they don't sell these days?

 

[Clark Kent]

Bunnings looks like a good place to start. Maybe they can do a Tradies Choice snorkel for the Grenadier.
View attachment 7914990

Some things can be too cheap. It's a bit late when the water is already breaching the bonnet to say 'Maybe I should have paid more for the snorkel...'

 

[Tazzieman]

Is there anything they don't sell these days?

I was about to say BDSM stuff , but then realised they do.

 

[Clark Kent]

I was about to say BDSM stuff , but then realised they do.

Flybuys?

 

[NQ94]

Some things can be too cheap. It's a bit late when the water is already breaching the bonnet to say 'Maybe I should have paid more for the snorkel...'

There is always the plumbing isle, black paint and a bit of diy for the real budget conscious.

 

[Tazzieman]

There is always the plumbing isle, black paint and a bit of diy for the real budget conscious.

Timber section for that cheap 4" lift?

 

[AUDIOBUS]

An idea out of left field: CIPP - Cured In Place Piping. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cured-in-place_pipe
It’s used to repair broken pipes: water, sewer, etc.

+/- $80 / liner foot and you'd have to find someone with the equipment/product willing to do it... But if you run a sleeve of this CIPP from the air filter box up the RAI, you could seal the whole system from the inside, from the top of the raised air intake to the air box. It might gain you enough time to correct for a mistake, or maybe the courage to double down on pushing your luck.

Now, how the material performs under the untested vibrations of washboard roads & corrugations for longevity? Your guess is as good as mine. It’s meant to fix a pipe in the ground which doesn’t move around, shift, bend or flex. But fiberglass & plastic are pretty sturdy.

This is not a performance manufactured fix, it’s an idea off the top of my head using fairly cheap, available technology to mitigate a driver error or an accident.

Poke all the holes in this as you want. (Ha ha) Hole number one is, you can’t take the air intake system apart again without cutting it apart. A round resin sleeve won’t conform to the square internal areas as well as round internal areas, etc. etc. etc. Have at it.

An alternative to resin CIPP is the thermoflow PVC product, which will mould/contour better to the inside of any shape pipe, but is also thicker. It’s steam expanded plastic and cooled in place vs. resin which is air expanded and has multiple curing processes including UV, steam, time…

An idea to ponder.