Americas 2024 ADAS Issue and Work Around (USA)

[LeeroyJ]

Quack Quack
It is a Duck.

House Preserves ‘Kill Switch’ Law That Could Shut Down Your Car​

November 8, 2023 4 min read

House Republicans failed to defund a federal “kill switch” mandate Tuesday night requiring all vehicles produced in 2026 and onward to feature technology that can automatically disable the vehicle “if impairment is detected.” This lays the groundwork for corporate and government access to monitor and interfere with personal movement.

The 2021 infrastructure law passed by Congress requires car manufactures to include “advanced drunk and impaired driving prevention technology” as “standard equipment” in vehicles. The provision requires such technology to “passively monitor the performance of a driver” and “prevent or limit motor vehicle operation if an impairment is detected.” In other words, manufacturers will be required to implement a “kill switch” mechanism on cars that can disable the vehicle based on performance.

Again - what failed was defunding the feasibility study - this still cannot become “Law” unless the study concludes it is feasible, and then the DOT gets it through the rule making process.

 

[bikesandguitars]

Looks like the best option from everything i see. Def going to try it shortly…

If you’ve turned the OS warning off previously, it’s probably automatically saved as your Favorite. (Or, if you’re a UK or AU customer, it saved as your Favourite.)

 

[bikesandguitars]

My problem with the Favorite Button and turning off the Over Speed warning is it takes five (5) long seconds to bring up the ADAS settings screen because of the software lags. At least the engine auto on/off button takes a split second to disable, the Favorite Button to turn off the Over Speed warning takes terribly too long to disable

You must drive far shorter distances than me.

 

[Zak Smith]

I have the Over Speed Warning saved as a Favorite. It’s literally two clicks and it’s off. I push FAV on the middle console, wait two seconds and then touch the screen. Done.

The thing that gets me is the DELAY when pressing these buttons-- not just the favorites, but all throughout the system. A physical button should cause action immediately. There is no reason for the delay.

Look up the "Doherty Threshold"-- anything after 0.4 seconds might as well not even happen; it leaves the user wondering if the system is even working.

Even though my dealer set my Favorite to the Speed Warning screen, it seems like it goes to the screen sometimes, but other times I have to end up hitting it like 2-4 times to get it to finally go to the Favorite screen. Anyway, I set mine to the ADAS screen and just disable the whole deal. I am "this close" to just covering up the ADAS related warning lights and the area on the screen where "AEB not available" flashes interminably-- except I do like to see my DTE.

 

[Zak Smith]

Great thoughts. My feeling is engineers at Ineos have become defensive on this issue. You see it every time with bad engineering. And when it involves coding and programming NO ONE will own it, EVER. These noises are clearly more dangerous then helpful. But you can also blame the speed Nazi mentality. Sorry folks, speeding in general is not dangerous. Especially in places like Europe where speed limits are horse and buggy speeds. Driving too fast for conditions? You Bet. Being reckless? You bet. Driving 40 in a 35? Not a chance unless conditions are such you should not be, If this speed crap is not required by law somewhere the team member responsible for it at Ineos needs to be fired.

All they have to do to save face is add a super-obscure setting in the settings somewhere, or a "debug mode configuration screen", or a combination of key presses that will set these things to "off." No need to even have them in the manual, just put it somewhere and let the word get out. Plausible deniability. If asked, say it's for a diagnostic mode or some such. Like how you disable the seatbelt chimes on a Toyota.

 

[Catpaw4x4]

The thing that gets me is the DELAY when pressing these buttons-- not just the favorites, but all throughout the system. A physical button should cause action immediately. There is no reason for the delay.

Look up the "Doherty Threshold"-- anything after 0.4 seconds might as well not even happen; it leaves the user wondering if the system is even working.

Even though my dealer set my Favorite to the Speed Warning screen, it seems like it goes to the screen sometimes, but other times I have to end up hitting it like 2-4 times to get it to finally go to the Favorite screen. Anyway, I set mine to the ADAS screen and just disable the whole deal. I am "this close" to just covering up the ADAS related warning lights and the area on the screen where "AEB not available" flashes interminably-- except I do like to see my DTE.

Have you tried using the center knob in stead of touch screen? I find the touch screen is variable - temp, finger moister etc.

 

[Zak Smith]

Have you tried using the center knob in stead of touch screen? I find the touch screen is variable - temp, finger moister etc.

I was referring to the actual physical button.

 

[nuclearbeef]

Again - what failed was defunding the feasibility study - this still cannot become “Law” unless the study concludes it is feasible, and then the DOT gets it through the rule making process.

Incorrect. NHTSA has through 2024 to study technologies. Then the tech must be standard equipment on all new cars either in 2026 or 2027.

From the AP:

The law gives the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, an agency under the Department of Transportation, three years to define which specific technologies cars should begin using. Once defined, automakers have between two and three years to comply.

The law leaves most of the details up to NHTSA, specifying only that the technology should be equipped to passively monitor a driver’s behavior or blood alcohol concentration, as well as prevent or limit motor vehicle operation if the driver is impaired.

Posts distort infrastructure law’s rule on impaired driving technology

In November 2021, Biden signed the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act, ushering into law a $1 trillion bipartisan deal to maintain and upgrade the country’s roads, bridges, ports and more.

apnews.com

 

[holdmybeer]

Engineering should have tied ADAS to a ceiling switch or two.

Then at least pre-flight steps to disable would be more enjoyable than poking and wading the screen GUI.

 

[T5Ineos]

All they have to do to save face is add a super-obscure setting in the settings somewhere, or a "debug mode configuration screen", or a combination of key presses that will set these things to "off." No need to even have them in the manual, just put it somewhere and let the word get out. Plausible deniability. If asked, say it's for a diagnostic mode or some such. Like how you disable the seatbelt chimes on a Toyota.

Here is the INEOS response as of today. No plans to change, its for safety, talk to your dealer.

Thank you for your feedback this is much appreciated At this moment in time, the speeding alert is a safety feature on the vehicle as the main priority is the safety of the customer. I will pass your feedback to our team. Please speak to your local dealership for further details. The Grenadier is a rugged, reliable, expertly engineered 4X4. But it’s also much more than that. It’s comfortable. Functional. Highly versatile. Tuned and balanced to perform how you need it to both on road and off and designed to carry out whatever task your life throws at it.

 

[T5Ineos]

Engineering should have tied ADAS to a ceiling switch or two.

Then at least pre-flight steps to disable would be more enjoyable than poking and wading the screen GUI.

100% acceptable solution. Great idea and makes it kinda cool actually.

 

[grnamin]

I ascribe to the notion of a preflight check to disable the speed warning, but this one results in a warning light that stays on all throughout the trip.

 

[Zak Smith]

Here is the INEOS response as of today. No plans to change, its for safety, talk to your dealer.

I know. I was following up to Mountain4x4's statement of, "My feeling is engineers at Ineos have become defensive on this issue."

The hubris of their email responses is almost deafening.

 

[T5Ineos]

I know. I was following up to Mountain4x4's statement of, "My feeling is engineers at Ineos have become defensive on this issue."

The hubris of their email responses is almost deafening.

Agreed. “Our priority is safety” but we don’t provide lane departure. its a canned, fairly arrogant response to a clearly flawed, easily fixable design issue.

 

[S52]

I’m not sure if you actually read the 1039 page law that you cited, but the text you quoted (page 404) is related to requiring the Dept of Transportation to study whether implementing such a law would be feasible - it does not actually make it law.

Of course I didn't read all 1039 pages! I did however read the section relevant to our discussion to include page 404 that you reference. Lets take a closer look at what it says:

(b) DEFINITIONS.—In this section:
(1) ADVANCED DRUNK AND IMPAIRED DRIVING PREVENTION
TECHNOLOGY.—The term ‘‘advanced drunk and impaired driving
prevention technology’’ means a system that—
(A) can-
(i) passively monitor the performance of a driver
of a motor vehicle to accurately identify whether that
driver may be impaired; and
(ii) prevent or limit motor vehicle operation if an
impairment is detected;

Ok so we are describing a system that can for all intents and purposes prevent a person from driving their vehicle based solely on its data input received from various sensors...

The deadline:
TECHNOLOGY SAFETY STANDARD.—Subject to subsection (e) and not
later than 3 years after the date of enactment of this Act, the
Secretary shall issue a final rule prescribing a Federal motor vehicle
safety standard under section 30111 of title 49, United States
Code, that requires passenger motor vehicles manufactured after
the effective date of that standard to be equipped with advanced
drunk and impaired driving prevention technology.

Shall issue a final rule within 3 years of the acts enactment (15 Nov 2021 FYI) so that would be 15 Nov 2024.
Whats the definition of shall in legal terms?

"Shall is an imperative command, usually indicating that certain actions are mandatory, and not permissive."
(Cornell Law School definitions)

That Requires passenger motor vehicles manufactured after the effective date... to be equipped with drunk/impaired driving technology"

Requires: "to need; to need something or someone or make something or someone necessary"
(World Law Dictionary)

Public Law 117-58 goes on to the next page describing the timeline for implementation of this new mandate and what is required should there be delays in implementation, Along with mandatory reports to Congress on what needs to occur to make such technology implementable by manufacturers.

I have no Idea how you are getting that this is merely relating to a study whether this could be feasible? Thats not the way it reads to me whatsoever- but IANAL so feel free to tell me what I'm missing.

 

[bikesandguitars]

You guys are lucky you’re not musicians. Try playing with a click track for 90 minutes straight…

 

[LeeroyJ]

I just don't have the energy, or the "give a shit", to get into an argument on the internet. This (requiring auto manufacturers to include a "kill switch") is not "law" unless: 1) DoT studies and determines it is feasible to introduce this technology; 2) they make a draft rule describing the details of how it is to be implemented; 3) that rule makes it through the rule making process (including public comment); 4) it survives any legal or legislative challenges. Whether or not it will pass all 4 of those hurdles remains to be seen, but it is NOT law right now.

 

[[ Adam ]]

I just don't have the energy, or the "give a shit", to get into an argument on the internet. This (requiring auto manufacturers to include a "kill switch") is not "law" unless: 1) DoT studies and determines it is feasible to introduce this technology; 2) they make a draft rule describing the details of how it is to be implemented; 3) that rule makes it through the rule making process (including public comment); 4) it survives any legal or legislative challenges. Whether or not it will pass all 4 of those hurdles remains to be seen, but it is NOT law right now.

I came to that determination quite a few days ago on this topic...

Not only is it not law right now, but the bill passed recognizes that the secretary can take up to ten years without implementing the rule, and only at that time must provide some justification to congress.

 

[Offroad]

This thread has over 31,000 views. Right uo there with the top views. Here's some great advice for Ineos. Take a UK regulation, apply it to the largest market for the Grenadier (USA), pretend you're doing it for safety reasons, and ignore customer feedback from that market. Said no one ever. The competitive options, that don't have this 'feature,' that must be turned off over and over, are the G-Wagon, Bronco, 4Runner, Jeep, and, drum roll .... EVERY OTHER VEHICLE SOLD IN THE USA.

 

[Zak Smith]

This thread has over 31,000 views. Right uo there with the top views. Here's some great advice for Ineos. Take a UK regulation, apply it to the largest market for the Grenadier (USA), pretend you're doing it for safety reasons, and ignore customer feedback from that market. Said no one ever. The competitive options, that don't have this 'feature,' that must be turned off over and over, are the G-Wagon, Bronco, 4Runner, Jeep, and, drum roll .... EVERY OTHER VEHICLE SOLD IN THE USA.

Hear, Hear!