Toyota's strategy ...

[bemax]

And about as ugly as a Lada Niva

I like the Niva.
It’s an honest car and you did not have to pay more then you got!

 

[ECrider]

from 1.31mins;

'that'll do....'

 

[cheswick]

I don't have an EV, but I think it was sometime in 2012 that the world demographics shifted from "majority rural" to "majority urban" -- in other words, more than 50% of mankind now lives in cities.

maybe I’m missing the point you are trying to make but I don’t think the fact that one group of people is now the majority should change the life of the group that is now the minority. Let’s say 52% of the population were rural and now it’s 48%, those billions of people still need to live their lives as they did before and the infrastructure isn’t going to appear overnight. Heck most of these people would want a fridge or air conditioning before an EV.

Classic example luxury beliefs: “Ideas & opinions that confer status in the upper class while inflicting costs on the lower class.”

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

I don't understand the connection between Italian and French auto companies and ICE and going back and beyond in a Panda...is that the Chinese connection?

I was making a joke about Toyota's reliablity as compared to Fiat/Peugot, who I understand are not reckoned to be as robust. So, if the only option for an ICE for remote travel was from a company that has a lesser reputation for reliability, we'd all be slightly less off as compared to it being Toyota, that has a rock-solid reputation for reliability doing what they're doing.

I will never claim to always make good jokes, but I'll always make attempts at them!

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

maybe I’m missing the point you are trying to make but I don’t think the fact that one group of people is now the majority should change the life of the group that is now the minority. Let’s say 52% of the population were rural and now it’s 48%, those billions of people still need to live their lives as they did before and the infrastructure isn’t going to appear overnight. Heck most of these people would want a fridge or air conditioning before an EV.

Classic example luxury beliefs: “Ideas & opinions that confer status in the upper class while inflicting costs on the lower class.”

That's not my point. My point is that the market for car-buyers -- human beings -- are now mostly in places where EVs make sense because a singular investment in a supercharger serves way more people than an investment in a rural area, and people in cities have far smaller distances to drive -- where I grew up, the nearest movie theater and shopping mall was a 6 hour drive to a different province through the bush. An EV would have been - and still is - impractical for me if I'm a movie lover. Living in cities, as most people do, it's a 20 minute jaunt on the ring road to see 3-4 megaplexes that they can choose from. Same goes for groceries, hardware stores, etc. City folks typically have a way lower range requirement than rural folks, and it's way easier to serve the charging needs of EVs because the infrastructure is already based on an incredibly high population density -- plugs on every apartment, type thing.

And the reality is auto manufacturers are in the business to make car sales, not serve a public good. If the majority of their customers are in cities, they will build vehicles that suit the majority. It has ever been thus in every industry.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

General comment on my Panda joke:

The Panda is a plucky little thing. The original Panda is a bit legendary, and the new one is no doubt lots of fun (it's geometry and size means it's probably Jimny-like in it's mountain-goat-edness). But it's got a Fiat motor and drive train in it, and my joke was meant to take aim at the reputation of Fiat powertrains which, anecdotally from the car folks I spend time with and my own experience with a Fiat-owned Chrysler product, is not positive. That may not be accurate to reflect everyone's experience of course.

I should have known better than to make a car reliability joke on a car enthusiast forum . That reminds me - does anyone have a Land Rover -- something new, with lots of microchips please -- for sale cheap in Canada that can tide me over till the Grenadier is released?







(Kidding, again, in case that's not obvious!!)

 

[Krabby]

General comment on my Panda joke:

The Panda is a plucky little thing. The original Panda is a bit legendary, and the new one is no doubt lots of fun (it's geometry and size means it's probably Jimny-like in it's mountain-goat-edness). But it's got a Fiat motor and drive train in it, and my joke was meant to take aim at the reputation of Fiat powertrains which, anecdotally from the car folks I spend time with and my own experience with a Fiat-owned Chrysler product, is not positive. That may not be accurate to reflect everyone's experience of course.

I should have known better than to make a car reliability joke on a car enthusiast forum . That reminds me - does anyone have a Land Rover -- something new, with lots of microchips please -- for sale cheap in Canada that can tide me over till the Grenadier is released?







(Kidding, again, in case that's not obvious!!)

If you want to travel to the deepest parts of the Outback or Amazon, take a Land Rover. If, however, your intention is to one day return, take a Toyota.

 

[emax]

Toyota's reliablity as compared to Fiat/Peugot

Peugeot once made very reliable cars in the 70ies and 80ies. But these times are unfortunately over.

The old 504 Diesels are still in service in North Africa. There was even a pickup version.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

I love the "brow" of that pickup version! Super cool looking little truck.

 

[Max]

Don't forget the Italians are now responsible for moving and stopping the Grenadier and the French are building it...I have had Peugeots all diesel for many years including a 504 diesel to now the 3008 GT 2L Turbo diesel 8 speed auto...brilliant on road car that can also go off...built in France and I ride a Moto Guzzi built in Italy...and that goes off road also.

Peugeot once made very reliable cars in the 70ies and 80ies...

Maybe I have been one of the lucky owners who has not suffered but I believe in their diesel motors with hundreds of thousands of k's to prove it... it's been happy motoring

 

[Tazzieman]

Peugeot once made very reliable cars in the 70ies and 80ies. But these times are unfortunately over.

The old 504 Diesels are still in service in North Africa. There was even a pickup version.

View attachment 7796617

About 4 years ago I almost bought a pale green 404 ute to restore. As I was getting stuck into a 64 Fiat restoration at the time, the planets didn't quite align. It was this model.

1970 PEUGEOT 404 ONE TON UTE - JCM3984485 - JUST CARS

Click to find out more about this 1970 peugeot 404 one ton ute sold in whittington vic . Stock Number: JCM3984485 at JUST CARS

www.justcars.com.au

 

[globalgregors]

That's not my point. My point is that the market for car-buyers -- human beings -- are now mostly in places where EVs make sense because a singular investment in a supercharger serves way more people than an investment in a rural area, and people in cities have far smaller distances to drive -- where I grew up, the nearest movie theater and shopping mall was a 6 hour drive to a different province through the bush. An EV would have been - and still is - impractical for me if I'm a movie lover. Living in cities, as most people do, it's a 20 minute jaunt on the ring road to see 3-4 megaplexes that they can choose from. Same goes for groceries, hardware stores, etc. City folks typically have a way lower range requirement than rural folks, and it's way easier to serve the charging needs of EVs because the infrastructure is already based on an incredibly high population density -- plugs on every apartment, type thing.

And the reality is auto manufacturers are in the business to make car sales, not serve a public good. If the majority of their customers are in cities, they will build vehicles that suit the majority. It has ever been thus in every industry.

Well, not to mention that folks in cities are dying due to air quality issues. Not that these are entirely solved by EVs (tyre off gases, heavy vehicle contributions) but it will make a significant difference as the fleet transforms.

 

[Idahorocks]

I have an EV (Tesla) they are fundamentally better for most drivers in most scenarios, especially in the UK. The Grenadier is for the extreme scenarios, towing, very long range, remote etc. Will probably get a small 2nd EV as well at some point.

My daily driver is a Mustang Mach-E. This is the fifth Mustang I've owned previously enjoying the style and V8's in the first 4, including a '65 fastback, '66 coupe. I've enjoyed them all for different reasons and recognized their shortcomings as well. The Mach-E is a great car for my wants and needs finding a surprising balance of performance, convenience, and economy. I'm not offended that is has the Mustang name. The low end torque is a delight. I plug in at home about every 10 days to top off the battery and hardly notice the cost on my power bill. I've taken it on road trips with little to no fuss. The range is a good balance for when I would naturally stop anyways for a break. I just fit it in with a L3 charging station that usually tops me off in less than 30 minutes, about the time that I would otherwise be ready to go if I had been traveling with an ICE. This car was the best economic choice for my needs and the decision to get it has little or nothing to do with saving the world.

The Grenadier will likely replace my Mach-E.

 

[emax]

About 4 years ago I almost bought a pale green 404 ute to restore. As I was getting stuck into a 64 Fiat restoration at the time, the planets didn't quite align. It was this model.

1970 PEUGEOT 404 ONE TON UTE - JCM3984485 - JUST CARS

Click to find out more about this 1970 peugeot 404 one ton ute sold in whittington vic . Stock Number: JCM3984485 at JUST CARS

www.justcars.com.au

I remember this classical one was on the roads when I was young. It still has his special character - but has rust issues - of course.

 

[Logsplitter]

Peugeot still going strong in Senegal three years ago

 

[klarie]

Peugeot once made very reliable cars in the 70ies and 80ies. But these times are unfortunately over.

The old 504 Diesels are still in service in North Africa. There was even a pickup version.

View attachment 7796618View attachment 7796617

I know them very well - during my time at basic training when compulsory national service "Bundeswehr" I possessed a 504 TI before I switched to Mitsubishi. I know why they are reliable and operational in Africa. - Because they are built for rather dry weather. The 504 was okay as long as it was dry. Wet weather and nothing works. Wont start, - everything electric on very few fuses.. - But extremely comfortable.

 

[rovie]

I know them very well - during my time at basic training when compulsory national service "Bundeswehr" I possessed a 504 TI before I switched to Mitsubishi. I know why they are reliable and operational in Africa. - Because they are built for rather dry weather. The 504 was okay as long as it was dry. Wet weather and nothing works. Wont start, - everything electric on very few fuses.. - But extremely comfortable.

And those were not the only problems. My brand-new 205 XS was already dripping in the showroom. And 3 different workshops couldn't get it under control. Since then, I've been calling French cars oil sardines. But it's interesting, I never resented my Defender for sweating oil. I'm curious when my new Bavarian engine will show that it is filled with oil too.

 

[Logsplitter]

And those were not the only problems. My brand-new 205 XS was already dripping in the showroom. And 3 different workshops couldn't get it under control. Since then, I've been calling French cars oil sardines. But it's interesting, I never resented my Defender for sweating oil. I'm curious when my new Bavarian engine will show that it is filled with oil too.

Defender sweating oil

 

[Krabby]

Defenders are alphas - they’re not sweating- they’re marking their territory.

 

[globalgregors]

I know them very well - during my time at basic training when compulsory national service "Bundeswehr" I possessed a 504 TI before I switched to Mitsubishi. I know why they are reliable and operational in Africa. - Because they are built for rather dry weather. The 504 was okay as long as it was dry. Wet weather and nothing works. Wont start, - everything electric on very few fuses.. - But extremely comfortable.

Yes, first desert crossing I did was in a 504. Unlikely to see one of those on 4WD Australia…