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Americas Who has more leverage now, the dealer or buyer?

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The buyer always has leverage. No one if forcing you to buy.
Leverage is to exert a force to an advantage, If nothing the buyer does creates an advantage, the buyer does not have leverage. The second statement is therefore a non sequitur to the first. It has nothing to do with the dynamic between two parties voluntarily engaged in a transaction and seeking advantage.
 

DaBull

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Anecdotally, I have cancelled my order. I decided to wait out some of the problems the early adopters are having. Within the last two months, I've run into two other people here in Atlanta that cancelled theirs as well for the same reasons. Now, we all eagerly signed up for the first deliveries and researched our initial order and subsequent cancelation decisions carefully based on information available (actual fitness for purpose, communications from Ineos, stories about problems going unfixed) and thought it worthwhile to sit on the sidelines for a year or two. We were, I think, educated buyers. The vision that we were so excited about just wasn't materializing.

My guess is that those that buy our vehicles on the lot won't have made nearly the effort in researching the car as we did. When they get a hold of it and think it's going to be like owning any other car, they might be disappointed, perhaps even upset. There are just too many idiosyncrasies and patience-testing shortcomings that even the enthusiasts on this site grapple with.

The casual buyer that thinks this thing is "cool" isn't going to have the appetite for a $910 key that fits poorly into a cheap feeling ignition. Or incessant clicking from ADAS. Or water in the footwell. My hunch is that you're going to see a lot of these on the market in the next year or two at significant discounts. I'd wait it out and go used if you want to optimize your purchase price. That's my plan anyway. Still want one bad. :)
Hi Joefly78 I can respect your decision. If you thinking of getting one reasonable, now is the time to act. Once the public starts to see the Grenadiers driving around, demand will likely go through the roof. That's exactly what happened with the New 2020 Defenders. I struck fast and got a First Edition Model for $1,000 under MSRP and then prices shot up $15K plus for years. If you still want a Grenadier, the sweet time to strike may be now, otherwise be prepared to wait 2+ years to get one. DaBull
 

dreamalaska

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But the product is not what I expected.
Mohs, can you elaborate on what you were expecting vs. what you got? I was all in until the wife saw the dash picture and the lack of gauge console directly in front of the steering wheel. I originally thought Ineos would have designed a modular dash pod that would have been fitted in front of the steering wheel regardless which side of the car it was on, with the center video screen as an adjunct. Until this is addressed, if ever, I have to sit on the sidelines. :(
 

Tom109

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Mohs, can you elaborate on what you were expecting vs. what you got? I was all in until the wife saw the dash picture and the lack of gauge console directly in front of the steering wheel. I originally thought Ineos would have designed a modular dash pod that would have been fitted in front of the steering wheel regardless which side of the car it was on, with the center video screen as an adjunct. Until this is addressed, if ever, I have to sit on the sidelines. :(
I don't get it? You can just drive with an unobstructed view! If I really want to know how fast I'm going, it's right there (literally to the right of my right hand). If that is what's holding you up, go for a test drive before you miss the boat.
 

Krabby

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The no gauge thing was weird at first - especially since it was dark by the time I left the dealership. But it did not take too long to get used to and having already taken my rig offroad, it's brilliant. The forward view is absolutely fantastic. A little digital speed number in the front info screen would be nice, but only if the form factor remained. Trading the speedo for the visibility was a good decision IMO.
 
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Hi Joefly78 I can respect your decision. If you thinking of getting one reasonable, now is the time to act. Once the public starts to see the Grenadiers driving around, demand will likely go through the roof. That's exactly what happened with the New 2020 Defenders. I struck fast and got a First Edition Model for $1,000 under MSRP and then prices shot up $15K plus for years. If you still want a Grenadier, the sweet time to strike may be now, otherwise be prepared to wait 2+ years to get one. DaBull
Thanks DaBull. I kind of hope you are right and I eat my words. I'm really rooting for this venture to succeed, even if I get priced out. Heck, I even went to the Grenadier Pub in London twice over Christmas. If any of you guys are over there, it's worth a stop. Great food, inexpensive drinks and the original Grenadier sketch framed on the wall.
 

dreamalaska

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The no gauge thing was weird at first - especially since it was dark by the time I left the dealership. But it did not take too long to get used to and having already taken my rig offroad, it's brilliant. The forward view is absolutely fantastic. A little digital speed number in the front info screen would be nice, but only if the form factor remained. Trading the speedo for the visibility was a good decision IMO.
My plan is that when an aftermarket Speedo gauge pod becomes available for install then this will become a non-issue and I can order…
 

holdmybeer

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My plan is that when an aftermarket Speedo gauge pod becomes available for install then this will become a non-issue and I can order…

Well here's a thought ... I take my Garmin GPSMAP 66i with me on all offroad/motorcycle/backpacking adventures. It's small. It does 2-way satellite messaging anywhere in the world, for friends/family check-ins or emergencies. The display is infinitely configurable, including primarily showing accurate vehicle speed. More accurate than any in-dash or OBD bus device reading off the tires, since it's unaffected by tire size or gearing assumptions. Similarly, its trip odometers are more accurate and flexible than anything non-GPS could be. Likewise, accurate (GPS) elevation. And whatever times you're interested in (I enjoy knowing sunset and/or estimated time to destination.) Pic attached but all the fields are customizable, obviously.

Anyways, mount that on the dash with RAM ball mount or a suction cup, up front, down low where the windshield meets the dash. Powers off USB. And then you've also got it for the emergency comms, routing, and distance stuff, and on foot when you hike or in camp.

Just an idea, if that's all keeping you from ordering! Cheers.
 

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dreamalaska

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Who needs a speedometer when the ADAS will just yell at you if you go to fast…
The way my wife drives, ADAS would find it impossible to keep up, causing the computer to burn up. But I would be interested to see the two get into a altercation - I know who’d win, and I’d be carless…
 

DaveB

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Interestingly, Ineos still managed to sell out 2024 manufacturing capacity without advertising. I imagine once the initial word of mouth demand dies down, we'll see more advertising?
remember that Ineos has an extremely limited manufacturing capacity
Maximum is 45-50,000 vehicles per year but reality is probably 35-40,000
As demand for the Grenadier reduces, demand for the Quartermaster will rise to take its place.
Then the Quartermaster cab/chassis
Initially the Fuselier will be built by Magna but they may move that into the Hambach factory (total guess)
As they have now fully developed the longer chassis for the Quartermaster, we will probably get a long wheelbase Grenadier, or even a 2 door Troop carrier style.
If they develop the 2 door troopy then all the engineering will have already been done for a 2 door long bed Quartermaster.
We can also pretty much guarantee an up market luxury version for the Cotswolds/Hamptons set. Also different countries already have different models available.

There is also a wide range of variations and other models available in markets other than US/North America already.

Australia
Station Wagon & Quartermaster also available in Standard, Trialmaster & Fieldmaster options.
1709606928417.png

United Kingdom
1709607046431.png

South Africa.
1709607654122.png


North America get by far the most limited range
1709607976104.png
 
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DaveB

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Anecdotally, I have cancelled my order. I decided to wait out some of the problems the early adopters are having. Within the last two months, I've run into two other people here in Atlanta that cancelled theirs as well for the same reasons. Now, we all eagerly signed up for the first deliveries and researched our initial order and subsequent cancelation decisions carefully based on information available (actual fitness for purpose, communications from Ineos, stories about problems going unfixed) and thought it worthwhile to sit on the sidelines for a year or two. We were, I think, educated buyers. The vision that we were so excited about just wasn't materializing.

My guess is that those that buy our vehicles on the lot won't have made nearly the effort in researching the car as we did. When they get a hold of it and think it's going to be like owning any other car, they might be disappointed, perhaps even upset. There are just too many idiosyncrasies and patience-testing shortcomings that even the enthusiasts on this site grapple with.

The casual buyer that thinks this thing is "cool" isn't going to have the appetite for a $910 key that fits poorly into a cheap feeling ignition. Or incessant clicking from ADAS. Or water in the footwell. My hunch is that you're going to see a lot of these on the market in the next year or two at significant discounts. I'd wait it out and go used if you want to optimize your purchase price. That's my plan anyway. Still want one bad. :)
I think a lot of people who "want one" actually only want "the idea" of one, or "the fantasy" of one, not "the reality" of one.
Once they try it they realise they really love it OR really do like the comfort, luxury and fuel economy of some other more standard and boring vehicle.

I was talking with someone this morning who recently took delivery of a Toyota Landcruiser 300 GR Sport.
It is about the same price as the Grenadier Trialmaster in Australia.
He is fairly disappointed with it, he tows a 3 tonne caravan in sand regularly and says the Landcruiser struggles and is also very boring and has a low load rating.
It only has a 650 KG load rating, so with a 3 tonne van that only leaves 350KG for occupants, roof rack, bull bar, fuel and gear.
Assuming your 4 adults add up to 300-kgs that leaves only 50 kgs of gear, Toyota doesn't specify if their loading includes fuel, Ineos includes 90% fuel.

He is thinking he should have purchased a Grenadier instead.

1709608978540.png
 

Jack123

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Vehicle selection is a personal decision. It is easy to find fault and walk away and more difficult to wade through the haze and find the gold.

Fully agree with Tom109.

The last six vehicles that I bought, I did all the research, told the dealerships what I want, and made the purchases with very little or no test drive at all. My purchases included Honda, Toyota, Mini, BMW, Benz, and Range Rover.

One thing I do, I never look back once I made my decisions and I've been very happy with each and every one of my purchases. I feel that the IG, once I receive, is the best car that I will ever own. This is the one that will make me the happiest. Why? Because I've been waiting for it for over two years! Even my my wife and my children are telling me that this is the right car for me!
 

holdmybeer

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Leverage is with the man holding cash - always..
Absolutely not true when buying a vehicle today. In Canada, at least, some dealers (not INEOS so far) are refusing cash because they have buyers lined up who will lease or finance. Dealers get additional kickbacks from the financier. Dealers make less money with a cash sale. So cash walks and leases talk. It’s a different world now. 🤷🏻‍♂️
 

Catpaw4x4

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Mohs, can you elaborate on what you were expecting vs. what you got? I was all in until the wife saw the dash picture and the lack of gauge console directly in front of the steering wheel. I originally thought Ineos would have designed a modular dash pod that would have been fitted in front of the steering wheel regardless which side of the car it was on, with the center video screen as an adjunct. Until this is addressed, if ever, I have to sit on the sidelines. :(
Yes it is odd at first but now I don't know how I can go "back" ... at least my 96 Discovery is all analog. Incredible how dark it is when driving at night and thus how easy it is on the eyes not to be constantly fighting (even at very dim) light intrusion into your field of view driving down the road.
 

Catpaw4x4

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Thanks DaBull. I kind of hope you are right and I eat my words. I'm really rooting for this venture to succeed, even if I get priced out. Heck, I even went to the Grenadier Pub in London twice over Christmas. If any of you guys are over there, it's worth a stop. Great food, inexpensive drinks and the original Grenadier sketch framed on the wall.
Afraid the "Pub" is being turned into an upscale posh eatery :( .
 
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