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Toyota's strategy ...

AnD3rew

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You are right. As of now we convert primary energy such as coal, gas, uranium but also Sun, Wind, Water.. (they re called renewable but the truth is they aren’t.. ) in to electric energy.. but at the end we store it in battery or convert again in motion, heat, chemical.. with loss. So or so we have lots of inefficient processes. Cheap high density energy makes the world go round. Batteries are just a chemical storage. EV ok. But BEV? Counting all parameters this is obviously a dead end. Toyota bowed to political mainstream and certain climate religion but left a door open. Currently facing this similar in IT: The cloud first strategy.. also kinda religion. But not in all cases applicable.
Toyota does it quite clever.. they said where their directions will go. But what thy did not mention is ceasing production of combustion engines. Better listen to what is not said.
Let me be clear, the science tells us clearly there is an urgent need to decarbonise and I support that, calling it a religion is a bit disingenuous. My point is that despite inefficiencies inherent in various methodologies that there is a place for efuels In doing that. Battery EVs good for some needs not for all. I work for AWS so naturally also going to largely disagree with you on cloud. But as long as we can disagree respectfully it makes the world a more interesting place is we don’t all agree on everything.
 

cheswick

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Let me be clear, the science tells us clearly there is an urgent need to decarbonise and I support that, calling it a religion is a bit disingenuous. My point is that despite inefficiencies inherent in various methodologies that there is a place for efuels In doing that. Battery EVs good for some needs not for all. I work for AWS so naturally also going to largely disagree with you on cloud. But as long as we can disagree respectfully it makes the world a more interesting place is we don’t all agree on everything.
One thing to be learnt in life is that there is no one solution to all problems and if you believe there is you are most likely wrong. Whether it's cloud strategy, choice of fuels, systems of government the same rule applies. Another is that purist ideology leads to suboptimal outcomes at best and absolute calamity at worst, again whether it is something as mundane as a choice of fuel or cloud strategy or something as impactful as how we govern ourselves.

And yes all of this discussion is quasi-religious with various nonsensical dogma's - ask yourself, if the climate emergency is an emergency why is the most proven zero emission source of energy off the table? Why is there not as much focus on our overuse of air cargo instead of shipping so that we have our Amazon packages the next day? After all it is literally hundreds of times worse by way of climate impact. Why do the same people that declare the climate emergency fly to their self-aggrandising forums on private jets? Why do we penalise local manufacturing in the name of carbon reduction only tho have that same production move to to the other side of the world making it more carbon intensive to manufacture and then ship. I know why - it is dogma and easy religion so that people can feel like they are virtuous and superior by way of their consumption. It is why EV fanatics literally say they are "saving the planet" and why John Kerry says he is part of a "select group of human beings because of whatever touched us at some point in our lives".

I agree that there is a scientific consensus (not "The Science") but I will call out the fact that the things we are doing to supposedly address this issue are very selective to the interests of our elites and often at the expense of societies working class.
 

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One thing to be learnt in life is that there is no one solution to all problems and if you believe there is you are most likely wrong. Whether it's cloud strategy, choice of fuels, systems of government the same rule applies. Another is that purist ideology leads to suboptimal outcomes at best and absolute calamity at worst, again whether it is something as mundane as a choice of fuel or cloud strategy or something as impactful as how we govern ourselves.

And yes all of this discussion is quasi-religious with various nonsensical dogma's - ask yourself, if the climate emergency is an emergency why is the most proven zero emission source of energy off the table? Why is there not as much focus on our overuse of air cargo instead of shipping so that we have our Amazon packages the next day? After all it is literally hundreds of times worse by way of climate impact. Why do the same people that declare the climate emergency fly to their self-aggrandising forums on private jets? Why do we penalise local manufacturing in the name of carbon reduction only tho have that same production move to to the other side of the world making it more carbon intensive to manufacture and then ship. I know why - it is dogma and easy religion so that people can feel like they are virtuous and superior by way of their consumption. It is why EV fanatics literally say they are "saving the planet" and why John Kerry says he is part of a "select group of human beings because of whatever touched us at some point in our lives".

I agree that there is a scientific consensus (not "The Science") but I will call out the fact that the things we are doing to supposedly address this issue are very selective to the interests of our elites and often at the expense of societies working class.
We are all culpable for allowing 'Governments & Media' to hijack and run the carbon narrative - why are we talking about emissions/carbon... It's not about carbon, emissions, etc etc - not in my view and that's because it's a facade for the actual real ISSUE. These carbon issues are all about monetising the aspect because its measurable and you can apply it to a persons EVERYDAY SPENDING. What the entire argument now fails to even consider/acknowledge is the MASS LANDCLEARING going on worldwide which ensures that ANY form of emission/pollution issue is no longer able to be offset against normal climate conditions. I am sorry, but all issues lie with overpopulation and destruction wholesale of our actual living environment. I am no greenie but I am certainly a land conscious person and have a clear disgust for land clearing - I feel sick watching half a million hectares a year being cleared in Australia for developers and farmers. We already under utilise ALL FARMLANDS and building tuckshop sized cheap homes on tiny parcels of land for more people in urban sprawl is the no.1 disaster of the 21st century.
 

trobex

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So was the Toyota Strategy going to move Clouds, create religion and give the world carbon tablets?...I am not sure where we are heading here...happy times are ahead, I am sure of that... ;)
Back on point: Isnt Toyota's strategy to put their head in the sand, ignore the obvious issues and defects, then implement new car things way too late in the game, call it something else 'cool' and still charge premium? This and ignoring DPF issues - pretty good at that!
 

globalgregors

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Back on point: Isnt Toyota's strategy to put their head in the sand, ignore the obvious issues and defects, then implement new car things way too late in the game, call it something else 'cool' and still charge premium? This and ignoring DPF issues - pretty good at that!
2 cars (Hilux, RAV4) in the 2022 Australian Top 10 sales by manufacturer/model
US: 3 (RAV4, Camry, Tacoma)
Japan: 7(!) (Yaris, Corolla, Roomy, Raise, Aqua, Sienna, Alphard)
EU: 1 (Yaris)
Global: 4 (Corolla, RAV4, Camry, Hilux) including #1 (Toyota Corolla, 1.12M units).

Let's just say if they are indeed screwing up they're failing upwards...
 
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2 cars (Hilux, RAV4) in the 2022 Australian Top 10 sales by manufacturer/model
US: 3 (RAV4, Camry, Tacoma)
Japan: 7(!) (Yaris, Corolla, Roomy, Raise, Aqua, Sienna, Alphard)
EU: 1 (Yaris)
Global: 4 (Corolla, RAV4, Camry, Hilux) including #1 (Toyota Corolla, 1.12M units).

Let's just say if they are indeed screwing up they're failing upwards...
I think the issue is things are changing quite quickly. They have been caught out by the big names in EV's. And because they didn't really take it seriously... they don't have any prospect of having any proper EV's in their lineup until the end of the decade.

Meanwhile the other manufacturers are surging ahead. Yes they are looking healthy now, but things can change quickly and they have a lot of cash but also a lot of liabilities. Plus they have a lot of ground to make up.. Plus they need EV's which they can make money on.. not just to try and hold the tide.

FYI I see their 4wd platforms as being somewhat insulated from this issue.. at least for the moment.

https://thedriven.io/2023/01/30/toy...-performs-miracle-pivot-to-electric-vehicles/
 

globalgregors

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I think the issue is things are changing quite quickly. They have been caught out by the big names in EV's. And because they didn't really take it seriously... they don't have any prospect of having any proper EV's in their lineup until the end of the decade.

Meanwhile the other manufacturers are surging ahead. Yes they are looking healthy now, but things can change quickly and they have a lot of cash but also a lot of liabilities. Plus they have a lot of ground to make up.. Plus they need EV's which they can make money on.. not just to try and hold the tide.

FYI I see their 4wd platforms as being somewhat insulated from this issue.. at least for the moment.

https://thedriven.io/2023/01/30/toy...-performs-miracle-pivot-to-electric-vehicles/
I understand that this is the perception, but does it hold water?

They have hybrid versions in a number of those top selling models, and the rest are SUVs… so they are behind (by the measure of the reasoning) on NO emissions only, LOW emissions they are in the game, perhaps (arguably) leading.

EV ‘major players‘ below. Note Tesla’s global sales (Y & 3) are less than 15% by volume of Toyota Corollas alone.

Personally I can’t help but suspect that Tesla (for example) will implode under the weight of unmet expectations.
It can’t just be me that thinks they’re undurable crap... and all those mystery Chinese (I’m looking at you Volvo) brands??

After being overtaken in a 60cm water crossing in Central Mongolia by a grey import Prius however…

Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for clean air. I just think it’s gonna take a generation or more.

IMG_0145.jpg
 
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DaveB

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I understand that this is the perception, but does it hold water?

They have hybrid versions in a number of those top selling models, and the rest are SUVs… so they are behind (by the measure of the reasoning) on NO emissions only, LOW emissions they are in the game, perhaps (arguably) leading.

EV ‘major players‘ below. Note Tesla’s global sales (Y & 3) are less than 15% by volume of Toyota Corollas alone.

Personally I can’t help but suspect that Tesla (for example) will implode under the weight of unmet expectations.
It can’t just be me that thinks they’re undurable crap... and all those mystery Chinese (I’m looking at you Volvo) brands??

After being overtaken in a 60cm water crossing in Central Mongolia by a grey import Prius however…

Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for clean air. I just think it’s gonna take a generation or more.

View attachment 7803795
Is that a list of 20 cars
  • guaranteed to take the lead out of your pencil?
  • I have no desire to own
  • that identify as fluid sexuality
  • with stupid names
 

bigleonski

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To suggest Toyota has been left behind is a bit naive I think. They haven’t become the biggest player in the market by chance. They will have a clear strategy towards EV etc sitting in a box somewhere and will implement it when they believe the time is right. That could continue to be hybrids or hydrogen or whatever, and they will go whenever they think it makes sense to do so. And they will see a lot of early starters fall by the wayside in the interim I reckon.

But hey, I’ve been a yota fanboi for 30 years, so I’m probably biased.
 
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I understand that this is the perception, but does it hold water?

They have hybrid versions in a number of those top selling models, and the rest are SUVs… so they are behind (by the measure of the reasoning) on NO emissions only, LOW emissions they are in the game, perhaps (arguably) leading.

EV ‘major players‘ below. Note Tesla’s global sales (Y & 3) are less than 15% by volume of Toyota Corollas alone.

Personally I can’t help but suspect that Tesla (for example) will implode under the weight of unmet expectations.
It can’t just be me that thinks they’re undurable crap... and all those mystery Chinese (I’m looking at you Volvo) brands??

After being overtaken in a 60cm water crossing in Central Mongolia by a grey import Prius however…

Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for clean air. I just think it’s gonna take a generation or more.

View attachment 7803795
Unfortunately I can't see the base article but those numbers don't make sense.

In 2022 Tesla delivered 1.3 million cars world wide. This is not a trivial number. I understand though that toyota made 8 million cars so clearly they are doing OK at the moment. I posted a link to a video chat with Sandy Munro and an american journo. They think that now the boss has fallen on his sword, and they have new management that they will likely pivot quickly to EV's. They hold the new boss in very high regard and think he might pull it off. More competition is good. I hope they succeed.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/tesla...lobally-last-year-more-than-1-3-million-cars/

 

globalgregors

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Unfortunately I can't see the base article but those numbers don't make sense.

In 2022 Tesla delivered 1.3 million cars world wide. This is not a trivial number. I understand though that toyota made 8 million cars so clearly they are doing OK at the moment. I posted a link to a video chat with Sandy Munro and an american journo. They think that now the boss has fallen on his sword, and they have new management that they will likely pivot quickly to EV's. They hold the new boss in very high regard and think he might pull it off. More competition is good. I hope they succeed.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/tesla...lobally-last-year-more-than-1-3-million-cars/

OK indeed, that's my mistake. I've pulled in December numbers for Tesla and compare them to annual for Corolla. I stand corrected - thanks.

Annual sales for Toyota for 2022 reported 10.483 million vehicles as sold in 2022 – including its luxury marque Lexus, small-car off-shoot Daihatsu, and truck division Hino. 9.5 million for Toyota + Lexus.

You're absolutely correct that Tesla sales are a non-trivial number, and an achievement year-on-year. 15 by manufacturer rank, just trailing Geely (sources unverified, as I'm a lazy tight arse who won't pay for data).

It's still not enough to get me behind Tesla or over what may be an irrational doubt about BEVs (or, more specifically, the viability of prevailing battery tech).

edit: watched the video - thanks for sharing! :)
 
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OK indeed, that's my mistake. I've pulled in December numbers for Tesla and compare them to annual for Corolla. I stand corrected - thanks.

Annual sales for Toyota for 2022 reported 10.483 million vehicles as sold in 2022 – including its luxury marque Lexus, small-car off-shoot Daihatsu, and truck division Hino. 9.5 million for Toyota + Lexus.

You're absolutely correct that Tesla sales are a non-trivial number, and an achievement year-on-year. 15 by manufacturer rank, just trailing Geely (sources unverified, as I'm a lazy tight arse who won't pay for data).

It's still not enough to get me behind Tesla or over what may be an irrational doubt about BEVs (or, more specifically, the viability of prevailing battery tech).

Notwithstanding, I'll watch the video with as open mind as one might manage - thanks for sharing! :)
Honestly.. I've got an EV on order as stated. It makes sense for our situation where we have one ICE car for long trips and big loads, and an EV for running around on shorter trips. The car the EV is replacing has never been further than about 150k from home in the whole 7 years. Most EV's now have 400k or more range. This will be heaps for us. Plus - EV's are very very nice to drive around the city.

I do feel as though some people believe they are being forced into an EV and they are unhappy about it. I do not believe this is the case in Australia at this point. I think I've gone into the EV thing with a pretty objective mind - there are some things they are really good at. And at the moment there are some big capability gaps.

Personally I think there are lots of people that they will work for, or in families where one of their cars might be well suited. I do think a lot of people are driving large SUV's that probably don't actually need them. I see lots of shiny ones around. If we make the choices compelling enough people will make the right calls.

At this juncture the manufacturers that service Australia do not have enough supply (or are sending it to other markets) to saturate demand in Australia. Not even remotely close. I reckon we should focus on getting EV's to owners that are well suited to them, and once that is done we can move onto the harder things. By the time that happens there will probably be more choice etc... Who knows. Do the low hanging fruit first. IMHO.

Jumping back to Toyota - that's why I think they will struggle for at least the next few years. Many of their cars will come into direct competition with EV's. Small cars like the corolla and camry are only just now seeing a number of creditable EV competitors. Even if they say today that they are going to push for an EV they are at least five years off. That's going to be difficult.

In the meantime, buy your diesel/petrol Grenadier while you can!
 

globalgregors

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Honestly.. I've got an EV on order as stated. It makes sense for our situation where we have one ICE car for long trips and big loads, and an EV for running around on shorter trips. The car the EV is replacing has never been further than about 150k from home in the whole 7 years. Most EV's now have 400k or more range. This will be heaps for us. Plus - EV's are very very nice to drive around the city.

I do feel as though some people believe they are being forced into an EV and they are unhappy about it. I do not believe this is the case in Australia at this point. I think I've gone into the EV thing with a pretty objective mind - there are some things they are really good at. And at the moment there are some big capability gaps.

Personally I think there are lots of people that they will work for, or in families where one of their cars might be well suited. I do think a lot of people are driving large SUV's that probably don't actually need them. I see lots of shiny ones around. If we make the choices compelling enough people will make the right calls.

At this juncture the manufacturers that service Australia do not have enough supply (or are sending it to other markets) to saturate demand in Australia. Not even remotely close. I reckon we should focus on getting EV's to owners that are well suited to them, and once that is done we can move onto the harder things. By the time that happens there will probably be more choice etc... Who knows. Do the low hanging fruit first. IMHO.

Jumping back to Toyota - that's why I think they will struggle for at least the next few years. Many of their cars will come into direct competition with EV's. Small cars like the corolla and camry are only just now seeing a number of creditable EV competitors. Even if they say today that they are going to push for an EV they are at least five years off. That's going to be difficult.

In the meantime, buy your diesel/petrol Grenadier while you can!
Yes, agree on all of that. Watch my tune change when a BEV emerges from Borgo Panigale.
 

OGrid

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The times are a changing. Tesla Model 3 was third in vehicle volume for Australian new car sales in January 2023.

January 2023 - Australian New Car Sales
  1. Ford Ranger – 4,749
  2. Toyota HiLux – 4,131
  3. Tesla Model 3 – 2,927
  4. Mazda CX-3 – 2,417
  5. Mazda CX-5 – 2,189

Tesla Model 3 shocks to join Ford Ranger and Toyota Hilux on January 2023 sales podium​

 

Tazzieman

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Is that a list of 20 cars
  • guaranteed to take the lead out of your pencil?
  • I have no desire to own
  • that identify as fluid sexuality
  • with stupid names
I dare you take the wife for a test drive in a Volvo XC40 . the twin recharge one.
If she doesn't giggle and say "I want one" (as well as the Jiminy) I'd be mightily surprised :p
(I imagine( it's a cheaper way of putting lead in your pencil than a Porsche ;)
 
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One thing to be learnt in life is that there is no one solution to all problems and if you believe there is you are most likely wrong. Whether it's cloud strategy, choice of fuels, systems of government the same rule applies. Another is that purist ideology leads to suboptimal outcomes at best and absolute calamity at worst, again whether it is something as mundane as a choice of fuel or cloud strategy or something as impactful as how we govern ourselves.

And yes all of this discussion is quasi-religious with various nonsensical dogma's - ask yourself, if the climate emergency is an emergency why is the most proven zero emission source of energy off the table? Why is there not as much focus on our overuse of air cargo instead of shipping so that we have our Amazon packages the next day? After all it is literally hundreds of times worse by way of climate impact. Why do the same people that declare the climate emergency fly to their self-aggrandising forums on private jets? Why do we penalise local manufacturing in the name of carbon reduction only tho have that same production move to to the other side of the world making it more carbon intensive to manufacture and then ship. I know why - it is dogma and easy religion so that people can feel like they are virtuous and superior by way of their consumption. It is why EV fanatics literally say they are "saving the planet" and why John Kerry says he is part of a "select group of human beings because of whatever touched us at some point in our lives".

I agree that there is a scientific consensus (not "The Science") but I will call out the fact that the things we are doing to supposedly address this issue are very selective to the interests of our elites and often at the expense of societies working class.
I sometimes wonder when following a EV through country lane which of us is actually more eco friendly, The beautiful, healthy looking road side verges get as much CO2 as they ever want of me, but nothing from the EV. Further to that, is there actually any research which indicates the amount of car producing CO2 absorbed by said road side verges?

My point is that Chej is correct, we may be targeting the wrong means of transport. There is nothing to absorb CO2 at 30 thousand feet.
 
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klarie

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Let me be clear, the science tells us clearly there is an urgent need to decarbonise and I support that, calling it a religion is a bit disingenuous. My point is that despite inefficiencies inherent in various methodologies that there is a place for efuels In doing that. Battery EVs good for some needs not for all. I work for AWS so naturally also going to largely disagree with you on cloud. But as long as we can disagree respectfully it makes the world a more interesting place is we don’t all agree on everything.
What I wanted to tell - Toyota wanted a "go all directions" which I like. So there is always a risk of a dead end. Still I think Toyota is correct but differently packaged communication to the public. - The company must do certain decisions in order to survive in public reputation and to "make money"

To the other topics I have a comment.. that needs a few more words:

Indeed E Fuels are currently inefficient in production. So were other technologies in the past. Out Network went from 10MB Ethernet.. to Gigabit.. on a cheaper fees. etc. Combustion Engines became cleaner and consume less fuel, smaller volume and higher power.. - We can seriously assume as we are just at the beginning of e-fuels the production efficiency will increase. Evolution peak hasn't yet been reached.

In sense of BEV I agree.. but some politics think they are the solution for every use case -where most of us agree BEV are most certainly not the universal solution.
I work for a company that is partnering with yours and there is the same politics in mine. I did not say my opinion - but arguments I get from my customers. As of now a cloud is far more economical. Just 2 arguments my customers telling to me: As long as the German government is not going into cloud I won't. All hyperscalers are of foreign jurisdiction no matter how the local branches are registered. So there is a spying risk. So its difficult to argue.. - No matter what you promise. - if my assets are gone my business is gone. I used this just as an analogy. The same for Toyota - we recommend / advert EV .. but I wont drive off customers that may not trust or may have reasons to go the classic way. And of course I keep on researching if there is an even better solution as both BEV -and ICEV.

A word on science.. I did a lot in that environment.. my trust in science is limited. Scientists can be bought. Science did a lot of fails in the past. The most important part of science is the scepticism and dispute. So what someone discovers and develops a theory and there is some proof required. The topic of carbon / climate / human effect is mostly based on models. The problem in climate theory is - there is the same as in the covid stuff. Very few dispute and critics on certain models is permitted mostly not because of science but of political interest.- I will not continue this as we get in the political stuff and that is to be avoided. The problem of climate theory is long term evaluation and influencing factors that we do not incorporate or considered.. Sometimes because it is not in the interest of the group that is paying for the study.
As long as there is not a minimum quality on the studies and what influencing factors must be considered in timelines and what models will be used.. I will challenge it.
I am not a climate liar or something .. or the nice little term "it is generally agreed on" - nope .. with this kind of arguments no one will convince me.
Tell me models, measures, influcening factors, timelines.. data foundation - how many, region, etc etc. What scientists were invoked in verification and what not and why.
Too complex for most people? May be but allow to show proof when demanded. BTW I supported some years ago 2 institutes in subjects of polar data and environmental research (mostly on image evaluation) what has changed in crops & trees and change of coastal lines and prediction of flooding and erosion. There are still a lot of factors that are unknowns.

I want to stay on science. science means - acquire knowledge and create good ideas - but also question the pro's, con's, side effects and both consistent and continuously reevaluate as well.

Do not roll out something generally without being tested at agreed standards and do not lift standards because there is a so called emergency. (It may make the emergency even worse) This is the reason why I call this religion. If someone starts to believe this will because of skipping tests and research.. and hand out forms where you accept that a product vendor is not liable for any damage caused - then this is not science but religion.. because the results are made of hope and faith - not facts.

I had some battle with LOB (line of business) managers on exactly this stopping the use of software that were just in a state of a banana blossom - not even a green banana, far from being edible, my experience as an enterprise architect and process analyst that I am since now 20 years plus. My rule in business "do not trust but verify yourself" - (okay occasionally I delegated verification to my aides who share the same mindset ) My role is to play the devil's advocate and Mr. Murphy.

Delaying a product is a cost.. but quality issues and non-compliance is (perhaps far more) costly too. Sometimes theories are found as "cool" and taken as reality unproven and people are caught by surprise because effects occur and denied to exist because they do not fit in their mindset so they shouldn't appear. That is just philosophic.. but an experience I made in a telecoms supply company I worked for in my past.

Long story short - even if there are delays - I like that Ineos Automotive are still checking the vehicles.. So discovery any flaw and fixing it is important. Seeing cars roll to agents stepwise is a good sign to progress. - The cars will be handed over .. even if there is some delay now..

And Toyota (never possessed one) - has a quite good way to handle the headwind facing the automotive industry and may perhaps better survive the regulation and politics than many other competition.
 

Geordie Hillbilly

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It's not about off-road driving. But when the world's largest automaker makes a statement about EVs and how they deal with them, it's worth a notice. So the last word on the future of combustion engines has not yet been spoken.

They're probably smarter than the others. "Freedom of Mobility available to everybody".

What is the date on this? The graphs refer to 2017, so its a little out of date if that's when the statements were made? Is this still Toyota's stance now if it is from 2017?
 

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We are all culpable for allowing 'Governments & Media' to hijack and run the carbon narrative - why are we talking about emissions/carbon... It's not about carbon, emissions, etc etc - not in my view and that's because it's a facade for the actual real ISSUE. These carbon issues are all about monetising the aspect because its measurable and you can apply it to a persons EVERYDAY SPENDING. What the entire argument now fails to even consider/acknowledge is the MASS LANDCLEARING going on worldwide which ensures that ANY form of emission/pollution issue is no longer able to be offset against normal climate conditions. I am sorry, but all issues lie with overpopulation and destruction wholesale of our actual living environment. I am no greenie but I am certainly a land conscious person and have a clear disgust for land clearing - I feel sick watching half a million hectares a year being cleared in Australia for developers and farmers. We already under utilise ALL FARMLANDS and building tuckshop sized cheap homes on tiny parcels of land for more people in urban sprawl is the no.1 disaster of the 21st century.
Ack 200%
My point for ~20 years. Governments worldwide haven't had the balls to name the _real_ problem and start to act on it.
Never got the point of discussions about how much people planet Earth could tolerate under "optimum" conditions? 10 billion? 15 billion? That's academic...
 
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