Lynn Calder questions agency modell

In a recently done interview with Lynn Calder she questions the agency sales model, which is in place in some (not all) countries. This model was choosen by many manufacturers when there were more demand for cars, then it is now. More and more OEMS turn away from the agency model.

When asked what Calder would do differently with the next vehicle, the conversation quickly turns to the topic of distribution and the journey of the Grenadier to the customer. Depending on the market, Ineos currently sells its vehicles through dealers (as in Germany), direct sales via the agency model, or through a general importer.
Calder has doubts about the success of the agency model. "It was conceived at a time when high demand for vehicles made implementation much easier," says Calder.
These conditions are no longer valid. As a new manufacturer without much experience, it is evident that there are good reasons to leave sales to the dealers. Additionally, the administrative burden was underestimated, such as customer service with call centers or vehicle registration in various markets.
Calder’s conclusion is, "I am not convinced that the agency model aligns OEMs and dealers in a way that benefits the customers."

AWo

 

[Sean326]

I remember clearly in 1991 buying my first Wrangler Sahara for @$14,500, before there was a Rubicon trim, making the Sahara their top trim. I was out of college and as much as I wanted a Defender 90, it was almost double the price of the Wrangler, at @$26k. It might as well have been $90k because there was no way I could afford to pay double what I bought the Wrangler for.

I concede I may be on the “luckier” side of having problems with my Grenadier but even with the few problems I have had, I have a hard time believing that the other models @Sean326 has noted don’t have their own problems, some more significant than anything the Grenadier is having…from much more established brands. I am also on many forums from watches, to cars and lots in-between and have never had anyone more than a CS rep on the forums and that's even rare.

I do agree that as a start up INEOS has to do it better than the established brands to make it. Those brands have market share, brand recognition, customer base, established supply chains, dealer network, etc… Aside from taking care of those that took a chance on INEOS from jump, making the brand more well known has to be a priority. Interestingly, after Joe Rogan talked about it on his podcast, I had co-workers, even my boss, curious and asking me questions about my truck.

Hopefully with the recent interactions between @Tom D and Lynne, were’re closer to having a better truck and better company/customer relationship.

Jiman, We have some common background, i've always been interested in defenders and and jeeps, I still own a '09 AEV wrangler that i got for $20,000.00 then spent another $20,000.00 on it. Regarding the availability of buying a real defender they were only imported in the US from '93 to '97. If back then the defender would have been more popular and those years were extended and more were sold we may have been able to build up the nostalgic culture that much of the rest of the world has especially Britain and australia. The problem is Britain and Australia buy so few vehicles, combined about 1/9 of the USA market. Regarding other established brands having the same problems I disagree. My wife is a Lexus SUV girl, my immediate family have their favorites as well... lots (new every year or two) of BMW x-5's and x7's, and a few massarati SUv's. they can't believe that a company would be telling its owners Just wait for an update that is 6 months past original promised date and that when it does come its got to be plugged into at the dealer and not done over the air. Let alone the other reoccurring gremlins that are routinely discussed on this forum and FB owners groups. Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan, not a critic, i'm all in. I love my Gren worts and all. I've already told my dealer when the books open up on the '26 and if the promised upgrades have been made I'm trading in my new '24 for a real red, updated '26 Gren. and i just want that dealer to be in business till then and long after for the support that i'll most assuredly need. (I'm still keeping my '09 wrangler & Diesel RAM)

 

[Jiman01]

We do have lots of common ground. I think most here, if we replace Wrangler with Toyota or Land Rover, would have very similar stories before landing here

I still gotta disagree with you on the problems other brands have though A look on any brand forum will tell the tale. With that said, Lexus has been at or near the top of customer satisfaction surveys, for years but even their 550 has some interesting quirks, like the hood buffetting at speed. Seeing that driving everyday would drive me more nuts than ADAS. At least I can turn ADAS off. But either way we can agree to disagree on that one and still be friends

Regarding the over the air updates, I think at least when the pre-orders were being taken, unplugging from the dealerships was seen as a plus. I still think it is a positive. It has been an adjustment. I took for granted the ease and convenience of over-the-air updates. Back when this was first being discussed, discussions of being able to disable vehicles remotely if law enforcement requested it was a hot topic, there was talk of monthly fees for options like heated seats…all turned off/on remotely.

In light of all the government over reach that occurred during COVID, I believe for many not being connected, and having to drive to the dealership for any critical updates, was seen as a net positive. Now that a few years have past and those discussions aren’t “front page” anymore, and with fading memories of how much the government exerted control over our lives, we forget the advantages of not being connected…at least our vehicle.

At the risk of sounding more like a fanboi, I do agree with you that these updates should have come sooner and/or at least met the deadline that INEOS set for themselves. I give them slack because they're a new to the game and I assume they ran into a lot of hurdles they never knew existed….and thus an update for a non-critical fix (ADAS) was put off for higher priority tasking. I could be completely full of BS, but that's what my fanboi brain envisions

Anyway, lets wait together with bated breath for some good news ASAFP….thanks again to guys like @Stu_Barnes, @Tom, and all the others behind the scenes, trying to make it better for the rest of us.

 

[Zimm]

I respectfully disagree, there are a couple shops that take old defenders and turn em into $200,000+ works of art and move a few dozen vehicles annually.

Put on your best off the rack Ralph Lauren sport coat, and mosey on down to your local Bentley dealer and have a seat. See and feel the interior. That's craftsmanship and automobile artwork. While I hate black cars, pick a black one, and gaze into the depth of the fresh factory paint. Once it sees the light of day it'll never be the same again.

Get a close up look at a Rembrandt, and notice how he captured the emotion and light with color, and then look at a Wahola. The only thing they have in common, is someone was dumb enough to spend Rembrandt money on a social statement labeled art.

What you're calling a work of art, is a vin swapped turdbucket with assemblers laughing all the way to the bank. Sandblast a ford 9n, and wrap its spring seat in full grain, and you still have a ford 9n.

 

[Max]

and gaze into the depth of the fresh factory paint. Once it sees the light of day it'll never be the same again.

IMO you have summed yourself up here...you are a purist at heart that has seen the light of day...

 

[MrMike]

This is admittedly a small anecdotal item but I've been kind of amazed as i've browsed the forum both here and the pages on FB the lack of interactions the company has with the owners. Everything the owners discuss seems to be based on articles, rumors and dealers who say they get almost no news or feedback from Ineos HQ. I'm on other forums and pages for my other hobbies and passions, watch collecting, technical scuba diving etc. In those areas its common for the manufacturers to have a presence, check in occasionally with new products and respond when customers/owners ask questions or make comments. That concept doesn't seem to exist in this world.
Stay with me, these two concepts tie together....
I understand the historic and nostalgic roots of the Grenadier, that's partially why I bought one, I loved the defender.
But the 2000 defender sold for $14,000.00 per ai which equates to about $25,000.00 in todays $.
My grenadier (with checking several boxes) came in at $90,000.00, that's the cost of a pretty high end SUV, comparable to a Porsche cayenne, BMW X7. That said what surprised me the most was the intrusive nature of the ADAS system yet its complete lack of utility (short of a head on crash that it claims to try to prevent 2 seconds prior to collision). Essentially a system with the capabilities common to the industry in 2010 vehicles, not 2024/25. Yet i did see evidence that they were improving the system in future models from various sources such as a calif. dealers webpage mentioning blind spot monitor and adaptive cruise control. I asked my dealer also on this forum and on FB but no one had any definitive answer.
So I took a shot at asking customer service on the main corporate website. I got a pretty comprehensive response within 24 hours. I asked specifically about upgrades in the'26 model year.

CASE REFERENCE: 179818​

Hi Sean,

The new ADAS update includes the following features:

Emergency Lane Keep - active lane keeping functionality instead of merely an alert sound.

Autonomous Emergency Braking - enhancement to include pedestrians and cyclists in the existing feature.

Driver Monitoring System - an inward-facing camera designed to assess driver attentiveness.

Intelligent Speed Assist - the option to deactivate directly from the home screen.

At this time, we do not have information regarding the release date of this update, but I trust this information is helpful.

Please do not hesitate to contact us if you need any further assistance.

Thanks,

Grace

INEOS Grenadier Customer Service

We (local Grenadier owners group) have a video conference call with Lyn Clader coming up, so I guess that puts to bed any notion that they aren't contactable or willing to listen to owners.

 

[Stu_Barnes]

We (local Grenadier owners group) have a video conference call with Lyn Clader coming up, so I guess that puts to bed any notion that they aren't contactable or willing to listen to owners.

There’s been a pivot of sorts since just before the new year. Perhaps the time off while waiting for seats provided the breathing room to remember who committed to the vehicle way back when and went through with their purchases.

 

[MrMike]

There’s been a pivot of sorts since just before the new year. Perhaps the time off while waiting for seats provided the breathing room to remember who committed to the vehicle way back when and went through with their purchases.

It was a very productive meeting, she seems committed to the early adopters.

 

[Sean326]

We (local Grenadier owners group) have a video conference call with Lyn Clader coming up, so I guess that puts to bed any notion that they aren't contactable or willing to listen to owners.

I kinda agree Mr Mike, with some caveats. I reached out to corporate customer service off the Ineos co. website. they were responsive and we had a very satisfying multi email engagement with them. I'm new but the preponderance of threads that I have read had led me to believe the opposite was true. This impression was magnified by my interactions and conversations with both the service manager and salesman at the dealership who both said there is very little corporate dialog with the dealers. I still think Ineos is missing the boat with customer relations by not having a presence here. I am a technical/commercial/public safety diver, I'm a watch collector, I drive an AEV Jeep a customized diesel work pickup. I'm active on social media and forums for all those and in each it is common for owers or their staff to follow the conversations and engage. Its great for customer relations and customer service and also the best place to roll out products to your most active and most engaged customers. Ineos is missing some real low hanging fruit here and a golden opportunity to build owner morale, boost owner loyalty, push sales for non-owner lurkers and promote options and upcoming model improvements. maybe 2 hours a day for a customer service employee to respond to 20 odd conversations here and on maybe 4 FB page groups would be a pennies on the dollar benefit to the brand.

 

[Zimm]

It was a very productive meeting, she seems committed to the early adopters.

do tell, do tell.

 

[LC0013]

So I took a shot at asking customer service on the main corporate website. I got a pretty comprehensive response within 24 hours. I asked specifically about upgrades in the'26 model year.

CASE REFERENCE: 179818​

Hi Sean,

The new ADAS update includes the following features:

Emergency Lane Keep - active lane keeping functionality instead of merely an alert sound.

Autonomous Emergency Braking - enhancement to include pedestrians and cyclists in the existing feature.

Driver Monitoring System - an inward-facing camera designed to assess driver attentiveness.

Intelligent Speed Assist - the option to deactivate directly from the home screen.

At this time, we do not have information regarding the release date of this update, but I trust this information is helpful.

Please do not hesitate to contact us if you need any further assistance.

Thanks,

Grace

INEOS Grenadier Customer Service

I was hoping the new ADAS would include a permanent deactivation switch instead of providing us with more nanny state bs.

 

[Sean326]

Put on your best off the rack Ralph Lauren sport coat, and mosey on down to your local Bentley dealer and have a seat. See and feel the interior. That's craftsmanship and automobile artwork. While I hate black cars, pick a black one, and gaze into the depth of the fresh factory paint. Once it sees the light of day it'll never be the same again.

Get a close up look at a Rembrandt, and notice how he captured the emotion and light with color, and then look at a Wahola. The only thing they have in common, is someone was dumb enough to spend Rembrandt money on a social statement labeled art.

What you're calling a work of art, is a vin swapped turdbucket with assemblers laughing all the way to the bank. Sandblast a ford 9n, and wrap its spring seat in full grain, and you still have a ford 9n.

My brother's every day driver is a late model Bentley, think its a '22, it's an amazing car, stunning and drives like a dream... I do like and appreciate well executed vehicles, those defenders I mentioned are beautiful and people buy them even at nearly $1/4 million each. By the way, my dealer had a factory grenadier on display that was brought up from Atlanta in honor of a planned visit by Jim. It was priced over $200k and made to highlight future factory options like portal axels. ineos did not set out to sell a product to just the core group of defender nostalgists, if so they could have made a very capable off road copy for about $50k... But that's not what they made, they made a $80k to $120K and potentially $200k modern, admittedly more capable than most SUV's, SUV. To sell enough to pay for the G-Wagon factory they bought they will have to have competitive customer service and contemporary technology expected in this price point.

 

[Sean326]

I was hoping the new ADAS would include a permanent deactivation switch instead of providing us with more nanny state bs.

You could've gotten the Jeep on the left in my avitar about half the price of the gren but with fewer beeps chirps and whistles yet more capable off road. For about the same as my gren you could've gotten the Ram, just as capable off road except it can pull 10 tons. The reason the largest selling car company in the world includes full feature ADAS in its mid and upper level cars is people like it and buy em. My mid level tundra and top trim lexus both are nearly self driving on the highway at cruise, I thought my $90k '24 gren would be too.... ineos customer service said they are stepping up the ADAS in the '26 model. Smart, its what toyota and lexus would did. I like driving and I have to get into some really tough areas of the country for work, often with equipment... but driving in a straight line at 55mph for hours at a time i'm happy to let the vehicle help out.

 

[LC0013]

The reason the largest selling car company in the world includes full feature ADAS in its mid and upper level cars is people like it and buy em.

Ahh, people buy them because they are not an option but part of the required factory fixed offering. Put a cost on it and see how many would bail on its installation.

 

[FlyersFan76]

Put on your best off the rack Ralph Lauren sport coat, and mosey on down to your local Bentley dealer and have a seat. See and feel the interior. That's craftsmanship and automobile artwork. While I hate black cars, pick a black one, and gaze into the depth of the fresh factory paint. Once it sees the light of day it'll never be the same again.

Get a close up look at a Rembrandt, and notice how he captured the emotion and light with color, and then look at a Wahola. The only thing they have in common, is someone was dumb enough to spend Rembrandt money on a social statement labeled art.

What you're calling a work of art, is a vin swapped turdbucket with assemblers laughing all the way to the bank. Sandblast a ford 9n, and wrap its spring seat in full grain, and you still have a ford 9n.

Not all of them are VIN swapped trucks that are turds. Some are resprayed turds. I have followed many forum threads on Defenders since I got one in the late 90's and continue to do. There are still great shops out there and of course others that many know to stay away, far away from. But I am not going to mention them here. Some other LR owners on here know which ones.

 

[FlyersFan76]

Ahh, people buy them because they are not an option but part of the required factory fixed offering. Put a cost on it and see how many would bail on its installation.

Agreed. My '23 Escalade had Super Cruise listed as an option. The '24 was listed as factory standard but big deal I would still have to pay for it. Super Cruise in 5-15mph traffic is great. Super Cruise at 65mph I am not a fan. I don't even like standard cruise control.

 

[Tomdoc]

Here's some real first hand witness numbers.

My defender 110NAS changed hands for $96,000 with 50k odd miles in 2012.

New in 1993 it was $40,000. Thats $89,108.27 January to January 2025 in today's money according to the US Govt CPI calculator, not some guess.

That seems about equal right?

WRONG, That car was and is still a complete fucking cocksocket pile of shit no matter how you cut it. There isn't single piece of an original defender that wasn't pushed out of an ass and assembled by the slow. From the crappy transmission, to the garbage interior, to the hvac only capable of 10* below ambient, to the engines that would slip sleeves if over heated, to the driving position good only for midgets. ( sorry to any midgets on board). AND it was built on paid off tooling. It came with a roll cage because otherwise you would die in roll, the only issue being, the roll cage was bolted together safety devices crap. Wrapping paper tubing is stronger. So I guess you died on the second turn instead of the first. A Harley is safer head on, and that's with your sturdy farmer wife behind you.

The only thing dumber than comparing these two cars, are the wanker twats that pay 150g for a "refurbished" one with a GM drivetrain (awesome drive-train, but not expensive) and glued on shitty leather interiors.

The whole appeal of this rig, was it being be a Defender in spirit, NOT reality, thank fucking god.

Fantastic use of the vernacular mate. Have you been hanging around Brits? Or perhaps you are one? Yours enquiringly.....

 

[PalmCoveWagon]

We do have lots of common ground. I think most here, if we replace Wrangler with Toyota or Land Rover, would have very similar stories before landing here

I still gotta disagree with you on the problems other brands have though A look on any brand forum will tell the tale. With that said, Lexus has been at or near the top of customer satisfaction surveys, for years but even their 550 has some interesting quirks, like the hood buffetting at speed. Seeing that driving everyday would drive me more nuts than ADAS. At least I can turn ADAS off. But either way we can agree to disagree on that one and still be friends

Regarding the over the air updates, I think at least when the pre-orders were being taken, unplugging from the dealerships was seen as a plus. I still think it is a positive. It has been an adjustment. I took for granted the ease and convenience of over-the-air updates. Back when this was first being discussed, discussions of being able to disable vehicles remotely if law enforcement requested it was a hot topic, there was talk of monthly fees for options like heated seats…all turned off/on remotely.

In light of all the government over reach that occurred during COVID, I believe for many not being connected, and having to drive to the dealership for any critical updates, was seen as a net positive. Now that a few years have past and those discussions aren’t “front page” anymore, and with fading memories of how much the government exerted control over our lives, we forget the advantages of not being connected…at least our vehicle.

At the risk of sounding more like a fanboi, I do agree with you that these updates should have come sooner and/or at least met the deadline that INEOS set for themselves. I give them slack because they're a new to the game and I assume they ran into a lot of hurdles they never knew existed….and thus an update for a non-critical fix (ADAS) was put off for higher priority tasking. I could be completely full of BS, but that's what my fanboi brain envisions

Anyway, lets wait together with bated breath for some good news ASAFP….thanks again to guys like @Stu_Barnes, @Tom, and all the others behind the scenes, trying to make it better for the rest of us.

Over the air updates can go badly wrong. My 2021 Ford had a failed OTA a couple months out of warranty. The Accessory Protocol Interface Module (APIM) got bricked. A quick search revealed this to be a common problem. Tried various fixes. Dealer quoted $1600 to replace. They are available from independent shops (unit needs to be coded to your VIN) but you have to pull the dash apart to install. I kicked up a huge fuss with Ford and escalated it to Michigan as this seems to be a known/common issue. I think the lemon-law attorneys might have picked up on it. Ford ended up covering $1100 of the cost and I paid $500. Ford also comp'd an extended maintenance plan, which was nice. I've now disabled OTA. I have no intention of ever allowing another update on that vehicle unless a dealer installs it. My 2025 BMW OTA updates have worked well so far.

 

[FlyersFan76]

My brother's every day driver is a late model Bentley, think its a '22, it's an amazing car, stunning and drives like a dream... I do like and appreciate well executed vehicles, those defenders I mentioned are beautiful and people buy them even at nearly $1/4 million each. By the way, my dealer had a factory grenadier on display that was brought up from Atlanta in honor of a planned visit by Jim. It was priced over $200k and made to highlight future factory options like portal axels. ineos did not set out to sell a product to just the core group of defender nostalgists, if so they could have made a very capable off road copy for about $50k... But that's not what they made, they made a $80k to $120K and potentially $200k modern, admittedly more capable than most SUV's, SUV. To sell enough to pay for the G-Wagon factory they bought they will have to have competitive customer service and contemporary technology expected in this price point.

Mercedes doesn't build the G-Wagen, Magna does. That factory is in Graz, Austria.

They bought the Mercedes Smart factory in Hambach France.

 

[LeeroyJ]

.....
We too have multi hour (days in reality) driving, and the Grenadier beats my 200 series hands down.

I love my Grenadier, but my 200 series was way more comfortable for long drives. I'm surprised you find the Grenadier more comfortable.

 

[LeeroyJ]

....But the 2000 defender sold for $14,000.00 per ai which equates to about $25,000.00 in todays $.

I think AI is giving you a crap answer here. The defender was only sold (new) in the US from 93 to 97 and the MSRP depending on specs ranged from $35k to $49k. So that $14K figure is probably what a used 1993 was going for in 2000.