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Hagerty & Daily Telegraph Reviews (UK)

Screenshot 2023-02-07 at 5.03.16 PM.png

2023 Ineos Grenadier review: There’s still work to be done with this workhorse​




The same reviewer also posts to the Daily Telegraph, reviews combined.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/fe...perfect-reproduction-old-land-rover-defender/

View attachment 7802740
 
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jamgolf

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While I am intrigued by the Grenadier and its "reviews", the final decision will have to be made only after getting a chance to drive it in person. What is good enough for one person's use case is unacceptable for another's. I personally view reviews with a lot of skepticism and only take away patterns based on multiple reviewers e.g. multiple reviews have mentioned the wipers not doing a good job, so that is probably a weakness. Multiple have mentioned the steering and I am concerned about that.

For me personally, the must-haves are
  1. reliability
  2. the capability to go on 90% of the Colorado off-road trails in stock form
  3. being a comfortable long-distance cruiser in terms of steering, NVH, and ride quality

From what I have seen and read, I think (2) is a given with Grenadier. (1) only time will tell but at least that is the stated objective of the vehicle so I hope that is fulfilled. That leaves (3) as the only open question. Multiple reviews suggest that the noise levels are quite acceptable and the seats are quite comfortable and that the suspension is refined almost like having a premium aftermarket suspension. Essentially that leaves steering as the only aspect that will stop me from buying a Grenadier.

I've owned a Wrangler and spent $$$ in upgrading the suspension and steering as you can see - and even then steering was not quite as good as a low-end car. It became a lot better but in stock form, it was a joke. I am not willing to perform any modifications to my future cars.
_DSC9557.JPG

I've also owned 2 Land Rover LR4s, each for a period of 5 years back to back and both have had major reliability issues - in the end forcing me to trade them in and spend money on a replacement. I even thought of buying a Defender and even had a deposit but my wife talked me back to my senses.
_DSC8562.JPG

I also owned a Land Cruiser 200 series and added front and rear lockers and ran it on 34" tires. It was perfect and selling it was a mistake. Unfortunately, I had to part ways with it due to personal reasons. In hindsight, I should never have done that.
IMG_4307.JPG


Currently, I have a 4Runner which essentially meets the requirements except for its 5-speed transmission and gear hunting over mountain passes here in Colorado. I wish it was just a bit more refined and may be the next generation 4Runner will be the one.
_DSF3240.JPG

My hope for the Grenadier is that it will be just right and that I'll keep it for years upon years. I am tired of switching vehicles :)
 
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While I am intrigued by the Grenadier and its "reviews", the final decision will have to be made only after getting a chance to drive it in person. What is good enough for one person's use case is unacceptable for another's. I personally view reviews with a lot of skepticism and only take away patterns based on multiple reviewers e.g. multiple reviews have mentioned the wipers not doing a good job, so that is probably a weakness. Multiple have mentioned the steering and I am concerned about that.

For me personally, the must-haves are
  1. reliability
  2. the capability to go on 90% of the Colorado off-road trails in stock form
  3. being a comfortable long-distance cruiser in terms of steering, NVH, and ride quality

From what I have seen and read, I think (2) is a given with Grenadier. (1) only time will tell but at least that is the stated objective of the vehicle so I hope that is fulfilled. That leaves (3) as the only open question. Multiple reviews suggest that the noise levels are quite acceptable and the seats are quite comfortable and that the suspension is refined almost like having a premium aftermarket suspension. Essentially that leaves steering as the only aspect that will stop me from buying a Grenadier.

I've owned a Wrangler and spent $$$ in upgrading the suspension and steering as you can see - and even then steering was not quite as good as a low-end car. It became a lot better but in stock form, it was a joke. I am not willing to perform any modifications to my future cars.
View attachment 7802772

I've also owned 2 Land Rover LR4s, each for a period of 5 years back to back and both have had major reliability issues - in the end forcing me to trade them in and spend money on a replacement. I even thought of buying a Defender and even had a deposit but my wife talked me back to my senses.
View attachment 7802773

I also owned a Land Cruiser 200 series and added front and rear lockers and ran it on 34" tires. It was perfect and selling it was a mistake. Unfortunately, I had to part ways with it due to personal reasons. In hindsight, I should never have done that.
View attachment 7802775


Currently, I have a 4Runner which essentially meets the requirements except for its 5-speed transmission and gear hunting over mountain passes here in Colorado. I wish it was just a bit more refined and may be the next generation 4Runner will be the one.
View attachment 7802776

My hope for the Grenadier is that it will be just right and that I'll keep it for years upon years. I am tired of switching vehicles :)
Great photos, and yeah - you have nailed it. You and I are basically in the exact same position, and see the Grenadier in the same way. It needs to be reliable and durable, good enough stock to tackle most of our trails, comfortable enough for those long drives across Wyoming and Utah, and powerful enough on the highway to feel confident on the big mountain passes of Colorado. Like you, I've modified a Wrangler (and other vehicles), and I don't want to mod a vehicle any more. We currently have a 4-Runner as well (my wife's daily driver). It is a great vehicle - except for the dinosaur 5-speed auto-box. Have you ever thought about adding the Magnuson super-charger? If you get it installed at a Toyota dealer it is covered under warranty, and does not void the vehicle warranty. There should also be no wonky issues with the install or the ECU. It boosts output to around 350 horse power, and 370 lb. ft. of torque (I forget exact numbers). I have a buddy who has done it, and he loves it. It pretty much erases the huge downside of having just a 5-speed transmission. The build-quality on our (Japanese-made) 4-Runner is miles ahead of my Tacoma (which, sadly, was made in the U.S.). We've been thinking about keeping the 4-Runner with a super charger, and maybe getting a larger truck for big trips, and skipping the Grenadier. But the Grenadier just feels like the last of a breed - and its a breed I truly value!
 

jamgolf

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We currently have a 4-Runner as well (my wife's daily driver). It is a great vehicle - except for the dinosaur 5-speed auto-box. Have you ever thought about adding the Magnuson super-charger? If you get it installed at a Toyota dealer it is covered under warranty, and does not void the vehicle warranty. There should also be no wonky issues with the install or the ECU. It boosts output to around 350 horse power, and 370 lb. ft. of torque (I forget exact numbers). I have a buddy who has done it, and he loves it. It pretty much erases the huge downside of having just a 5-speed transmission.

Yes - as a matter of fact I have considered the Magnuson supercharger and just like you I feel that might be plan B if Grenadier does not work out after test driving.
It does feel like you and I have had similar experiences and have similar expectations from the Grenadier. I hope it checks the boxes for both of us :)
 
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Yes - as a matter of fact I have considered the Magnuson supercharger and just like you I feel that might be plan B if Grenadier does not work out after test driving.
It does feel like you and I have had similar experiences and have similar expectations from the Grenadier. I hope it checks the boxes for both of us :)
Yeah - I hope that the Grenadier works out too.

A downside to keeping the 4-Ruuner is that it starts to feel limited off road when you get into trails that stress suspension articulation. I've got a Stage 5 Icon suspension lift on my Tacoma with bigger tires, and it moves through terrain that lifts tires and feels very tippy in the 4-Runner. I suppose we could modify the suspension on the 4-Runner, but I'd much prefer to go back to a solid front axle that flexes without needing modification.

Some day in 2024 we should meet up and drive some trails in our new Grenadiers!
 

AnD3rew

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My niece worked for JLR when they were busting a gut on the new Defender. A lot of sweat and expertise went in to it. That it was late arriving and that it didn't look like the old Defender put an awful lot of noses out of joint, though not so much that they couldn't look down them at the final product. I think they've got the new Defender right and that it's time to cut JLR some slack. The amount of prejudice I see - stuff about yummy mummies and Chelsea tractors. One could be just as disparaging about the greenlaning weekend warriors with their giant wheels and CB radios but each to their own. I appreciate that there's a cult around the old Defender, a club to which new Defenders are not invited. It's different in Oz and Africa, but the vast majority of UK Grenadier owners will not be too unlike owners of the new Defender - shooters, fishers, outdoorsy types and, yes, probably some North London city types with weekend cottages in the Cotswolds. I don't plan to cross the Sahara in a Defender or a Grenadier. But I will be undertaking several roundtrips north each year of 1,500 to 2,000 miles each with some off-roading but nothing too silly. The question of off-road durability is a valid one for those who are driving constantly off road. But who are these people in the UK? And what is off-road? A muddy rutted farm track? I do that every day, no big deal. Most of us do not live at the extremes. Then there's the pick-up truck market. Can the Grenadier make inroads there? Possibly, but I believe that most prospective Grenadier owners are Defender and Discovery refuseniks, so comparisons with these vehicles are valid in my view.
I agree with most of this, I do think the New Defender (less so Discovery 5) are awesome vehicles and it was a real option for me. I have had Discoveries in the past and love them and the New Defender is the logical progression from them. I love how the New Defender drives and when everything is working they are unstoppable off road despite the Independent suspension. The main reason I went Grenadier is that I am approaching retirement and dependent on future economic conditions this may well be my last expensive new vehicle purchase. Having lived with a Discovery 3 for ten years I know that my confidence with doing a remote adventure in it at ten years was fast declining, they do tend to go into limp or disabled modes with relatively minor issues and while often restarting it can get you going sometimes it doesn’t and while I am an enormous fan of their air suspension systems, they are also a vulnerability. I have closely followed the New Defender forums and my brother and my mechanic have them, and it’s clear that they haven’t entirely overcome their quality issues and glitches, they are also prone to cracking windscreens on a regular basis (often regularly on the same car) and depending on options the windscreens can be full of tech, extremely expensive and often on back order. While the long term reliability of the grenadier is yet to be proven, the ethos and fundamentals look good and for me it has enough comfort and tech to be acceptable but little enough to reduce the possibility of a minor glitch disabling the vehicle in a remote place. My wife is slightly miffed I am going this direction because undeniably the New Defender is a lovely place to be, and a delight to drive.
 
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Max

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In my opinion, I would love to see a comparison of the same vehicles being compared at present in fifteen years time, including all costs and recalls, factory changes and the likes...I would be sticking my neck out to say the Grenadier is a winner but I believe it would be still around to compare...just a thought...happy motoring ;)
 

trobex

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In my opinion, I would love to see a comparison of the same vehicles being compared at present in fifteen years time, including all costs and recalls, factory changes and the likes...I would be sticking my neck out to say the Grenadier is a winner but I believe it would be still around to compare...just a thought...happy motoring ;)
15 years... you won't be able to afford fuel!!! The woke left will make sure of it!
 

Steveo

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I agree with most of this, I do think the New Defender (less so Discovery 5) are awesome vehicles and it was a real option for me. I have had Discoveries in the past and love them and the New Defender is the logical progression from them. I love how the New Defender drives and when everything is working they are unstoppable off road despite the Independent suspension. The main reason I went Grenadier is that I am approaching retirement and dependent on future economic conditions this may well be my last expensive new vehicle purchase. Having lived with a Discovery 3 for ten years I know that my confidence with doing a remote adventure in it at ten years was fast declining, they do tend to go into limp or disabled modes with relatively minor issues and while often restarting it can get you going sometimes it doesn’t and while I am an enormous fan of their air suspension systems, they are also a vulnerability. I have closely followed the New Defender forums and my brother and my mechanic have them, and it’s clear that they haven’t entirely overcome their quality issues and glitches, they are also prone to cracking windscreens on a regular basis (often regularly on the same car) and depending on options the windscreens can be full of tech, extremely expensive and often on back order. While the long term reliability of the grenadier is yet to be proven, the ethos and fundamentals look good and for me it has enough comfort and tech to be acceptable but little enough to reduce the possibility of a minor glitch disabling the vehicle in a remote place. My wife is slightly miffed I am going this direction because undeniably the New Defender is a lovely place to be, and a delight to drive.
These are my sentiments exactly, retiring this years and replacing the Disco4 with a vehicle that will last the duration.
 

ChasingOurTrunks

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The Haggerty conclusion was that the Grenadier still needs lots of work. That's based on these comments; my observations on those comments below:

Passenger Door Mirror failed to defrost itself
- You poor thing. I am just grateful he survived the experience. Jokes aside - this could be a fuse issue or something else rather minor, but it's a feature that I'm willing to bet 95% of Grenadier Owners don't really need/want -- I've never had door mirrors that defrost themselves in a lifetime living through Canadian winters so I don't see this as a big deal.

Doors required different efforts to shut
- Pretty common in off-road vehicles for door hinges to get dust and mud that will mean some doors close easier than others (that was the case on my Jeep anyway) so if this guy was later in the experience, these rigs could already have had mud and such clogging up the hinges. It could also be a hinge tension issue, but I'm struggling to find a situation where I would notice or care about this. Do the doors close? Yes? Then I don't care if one takes me a few extra pounds of pressure to do so.

Annoying whine from the front differential
- More info required from the author. Was this a fault of the vehicle, as in it was whining because something was wrong? Or is that just the sound that this tool makes? If it's the latter, then I'd no sooner worry about this noise than I'd worry about the sound a drill or hammer makes when using it. Tools make noise. 🤷‍♂️

Center diff doesn't always engage
Diff locks don't always engage/comms problems with the electrical
- I put these two together because I suspect they are a similar problem. I'm shocked that Ineos would let a faulty e-locker go to the press tour; they seem smarter than that! And the behaviour the author is describing actually sounds like user error -- failing to engage, not telling the electronics when they are engaged, etc. are all symptoms I can replicate on my old Jeep if I don't engage the lockers the right way, and those are I think essentially the same locker design as what is in the Gren. If this is true, it's a problem that needs to be fixed for sure, but I'm not convinced yet that this is an actual flaw (though I've been incredibly busy and only read two reviews so far - it didn't come up in the other one I read though at all).

Pathfinder software failed to transfer
- Need more information. User error or a software problem? How many times did it fail to transfer? Even my airpods -- and apple are known for "it just works" -- sometimes fail to connect. This doesn't seem mission critical.

Windscreen wipers leave the top half of the screen dirty
- That seems like a $30 solution with slightly longer wipers.

Not enough squirt through the washer fluid hole.
- Enough for what? I'd like to see a video of this - it's either an easy fix (bigger hole/stronger pump) or its good enough as is, and there is an argument for lower fluid flow; too much flow = waste of fluid, and that can leave you with none left in a pinch, whereas if the flow is too conservative you can just keep holding the button till you get enough; you cannot go the other way.

Windows get dirty and you can't see through them to see the mirrors.
- ....that's called driving off road, mate.


If that list are the only problems they had with the vehicle, I'm not worried at all and I don't think that these particular nits are worth picking, nor do they justify the position that it has "a long way to go" to be right -- they are justified if the Gren is trying to be a mass market vehicle but for it's market, I don't think these issues will be seen as significant, assuming the diff situation is what I suspect and not an actual problem with the rig. I do think the author did a good job of overviewing the Gren, but he did so from that mass market perspective and not from the perspective of the kind of person who actually wants the Gren because nothing else is quite like it.
 

Pessimal

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Is woke an abbreviation?
 

Earthwatcher

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I wonder how many have cancelled their orders as a result of these reviews? Not me. But I will examine some of the "issues" raised more closely and will have that road drive before signing on the dotted line. I too am looking for one of these to "see me out" but, just as I wouldn't buy a pair of brogues online, I do want to be sure I'm comfortable with this machine before I hand over my money. As others have said, the forum debates/comments are (mostly) helpful.
 

grenadierboy

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I wonder how many have cancelled their orders as a result of these reviews? Not me. But I will examine some of the "issues" raised more closely and will have that road drive before signing on the dotted line. I too am looking for one of these to "see me out" but, just as I wouldn't buy a pair of brogues online, I do want to be sure I'm comfortable with this machine before I hand over my money. As others have said, the forum debates/comments are (mostly) helpful.
probably none but maybe potential buyers sitting on the fence may stay seated or jump off!
 

Shopkeep

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I wonder how many have cancelled their orders as a result of these reviews? Not me. But I will examine some of the "issues" raised more closely and will have that road drive before signing on the dotted line. I too am looking for one of these to "see me out" but, just as I wouldn't buy a pair of brogues online, I do want to be sure I'm comfortable with this machine before I hand over my money. As others have said, the forum debates/comments are (mostly) helpful.
After reading all the reviews I reckon more will have jumped on than jumped off.
 
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