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Grenadier Cross-Shopping?

painter

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in all the discussion please do not forget that for me English is not my first language. It is quite a work for me writing here. But it is a good way of practice it as well :)
Good for you.

I like this forum because of the international membership and comment.

Thank you, and the other people from around the world, for your posting.
 

DCPU

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Talking of BEVs...

Maxus T90EV.jpg

"The new Maxus T90EV is the first all-electric pickup truck in the UK"

Available to order now for early 2023 delivery
220-mile range
Prices start at £49,950
1,000kg maximum payload – meaning the T90EV is eligible to be exempt from VAT

 

painter

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Talking of BEVs...

View attachment 7792433

"The new Maxus T90EV is the first all-electric pickup truck in the UK"

Available to order now for early 2023 delivery
220-mile range
Prices start at £49,950
1,000kg maximum payload – meaning the T90EV is eligible to be exempt from VAT

As if we don't buy too much from them already, LOL

Now they want our auto industry !? May Heaven help us !!, (or USA protectionism)

Funny though, I have been imagining ... if I do in fact end up getting a Grenadier, and people ask me what it is, I'll say it's a Chinese made knock off of a Land Rover. ... Just for fun 😗
 

DaveB

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I just dropped my car off at Mercedes for it's 100,000 km service and they gave me an EQC400 AMG line as a loan car. Fantastic vehicle but 78% charged and showing 286kms range left. I drove 6.7kms to my home and it is now showing 264kms range left. It is 74.2kms to my office, 150kms round trip, but I have no confidence I could make it there and back. Last weekend I went to my holiday house which is a 754 km round trip which used half a 69 litre tank in my car with plenty of running around up there. In the EQC I would need to recharge at least 3 times.
 

bemax

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I just dropped my car off at Mercedes for it's 100,000 km service and they gave me an EQC400 AMG line as a loan car. Fantastic vehicle but 78% charged and showing 286kms range left. I drove 6.7kms to my home and it is now showing 264kms range left. It is 74.2kms to my office, 150kms round trip, but I have no confidence I could make it there and back. Last weekend I went to my holiday house which is a 754 km round trip which used half a 69 litre tank in my car with plenty of running around up there. In the EQC I would need to recharge at least 3 times.
It will be possible to reach the house with one recharge. Unfortunately you should drive not faster than 100 km/h (better 80) and switch of ac or heating 😬
 

DaveB

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It will be possible to reach the house with one recharge. Unfortunately you should drive not faster than 100 km/h (better 80) and switch of ac or heating 😬
Funny one bemax! I don't recall ever having turned the aircon off in my car nor driven below 100KMH. I think it would last a lot less now as I was in economy mode and I just found the sport setting. Unbelievable performance from a big SUV. Handles like a boat still and it is going to kill a few soccer mums. You can actually see the range counter go down in 5km jumps every 100 metres travelled
 

bemax

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Funny one bemax! I don't recall ever having turned the aircon off in my car nor driven below 100KMH. I think it would last a lot less now as I was in economy mode and I just found the sport setting. Unbelievable performance from a big SUV. Handles like a boat still and it is going to kill a few soccer mums. You can actually see the range counter go down in 5km jumps every 100 metres travelled
Incredible! Do you know the size of the battery? I am always astonished about the poor „fuel“-economy of the german BEVs (the oncoming models seem to become better in this point)
 

DaveB

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Incredible! Do you know the size of the battery? I am always astonished about the poor „fuel“-economy of the german BEVs (the oncoming models seem to become better in this point)
No idea sorry but I think you have to drive EV's with economy and range in mind, not like you stole it. I just handed it back and got into my nice twin turbo diesel. Not as quick off the line but a lot more fun to drive.
 
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Stu_Barnes

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I just dropped my car off at Mercedes for it's 100,000 km service and they gave me an EQC400 AMG line as a loan car. Fantastic vehicle but 78% charged and showing 286kms range left. I drove 6.7kms to my home and it is now showing 264kms range left. It is 74.2kms to my office, 150kms round trip, but I have no confidence I could make it there and back. Last weekend I went to my holiday house which is a 754 km round trip which used half a 69 litre tank in my car with plenty of running around up there. In the EQC I would need to recharge at least 3 times.
Sounds like that’s not the vehicle for you. I suppose you’ll just have to wait for your dinosaur juice drinking Grenadier…..;)
 

DaveB

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Sounds like that’s not the vehicle for you. I suppose you’ll just have to wait for your dinosaur juice drinking Grenadier…..;)
My diesel Grenadier is going to be better for the environment than any electric vehicle. Our electricity isn't very green. . Coal accounts for about 75 per cent of Australia’s electricity generation, followed by gas (16 per cent), hydro (5 per cent) and wind around (2 per cent). Solar doesn't even get on the list it is so little.
 

Greg

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Yes 10 years of climate change denial by our previous government severely curtailed investment in large scale renewable energy.
Household solar however has being going crazy. Just about every house in our suburb has panels on the roof. But up here in FNQ we do get a lot of sun - more than enough to cover our needs for a good part of the year.
But it would be nice to have some form of electric vehicle so our excess generation does not go to the Electricity company for a few cents a kWk, which they sell back to me for more than 3 times the price when we do need to take from the grid.
Maybe a little electric sports car for the wife or an electric motorbike for me.
 

cheswick

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My diesel Grenadier is going to be better for the environment than any electric vehicle. Our electricity isn't very green. . Coal accounts for about 75 per cent of Australia’s electricity generation, followed by gas (16 per cent), hydro (5 per cent) and wind around (2 per cent). Solar doesn't even get on the list it is so little.
20190411-Reclaimer-cropped-1-762x345.jpg

Here's a lovely shot of our recharging infrastructure :)
 

painter

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Yes 10 years of climate change denial by our previous government severely curtailed investment in large scale renewable energy.
Household solar however has being going crazy. Just about every house in our suburb has panels on the roof. But up here in FNQ we do get a lot of sun - more than enough to cover our needs for a good part of the year.
But it would be nice to have some form of electric vehicle so our excess generation does not go to the Electricity company for a few cents a kWk, which they sell back to me for more than 3 times the price when we do need to take from the grid.
Maybe a little electric sports car for the wife or an electric motorbike for me.
I love it ! That folks get on with it ... produce their own power, charge their own EVs. Helps with home air con too.

Won't help me much where I live (latitude, wet coast). Here the gov has been pushing more electrical usage (heat pumps etc) presumably to utilise the hydro generation that'll be coming on stream from a big damn project originally planned so we could help "you know who" providing cheap LNG.

Anyhoo back to cross shopping - and speaking of dinosaurs - any love for the 4Runner ? Almost pulled the trigger on one last year but no regrets.
 

stickshifter

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We're really happy with our 4-Runner. Its not perfect - with an 8-speed transmission it would be much better - but it is as close to a simple, reliable, true 4-wheel drive as you can get in North America (following only the Wrangler, Power Wagon, and - when it arrives - the Grenadier). We don't have the 70-series Land Cruiser here. The 4-Runner is body-on-frame, the frame is fully-boxed and pretty stiff, it has a manual transfer case, and the simplest and most sensible H-VAC controls on the market. We have the "Off-Road" model - which - in my opinion - is the best combination of off-road capability (suspension & rear-locker), simplicity, and value. The TRD Pro has some nice features, but the softer suspension reduces payload a bit, and you can't get the simpler H-VAC controls. Its my wife's daily driver - so I don't drive it that much - but I like it a lot more than my Tacoma. My Wrangler was better off-road, but much worse at everything else (interior space, noise, on-road comfort). I've still never owned an automatic transmission as my personal vehicle, but I'm tired of limiting my options based on what vehicle comes with a manual transmission. The ZF 8-speed is the first auto in an off-roader that I'm actually excited about - it works great in the new Wranglers, the Power Wagon, and I expect it to be great in the Grenadier. Lastly, if you are underwhelmed with the power output in the 4-Runner, for $8,000 you can get a dealer-installed supercharger, that bumps power to around 360 horsepower and 375 pound-feet of torque (I don't remember the exact numbers).
 
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painter

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We're really happy with our 4-Runner. Its not perfect - with an 8-speed transmission it would be much better - but it is as close to a simple, reliable, true 4-wheel drive as you can get in North America (following only the Wrangler, Power Wagon, and - when it arrives - the Grenadier). We don't have the 70-series Land Cruiser here. The 4-Runner is body-on-frame, the frame is fully-boxed and pretty stiff, it has a manual transfer case, and the simplest and most sensible H-VAC controls on the market. We have the "Off-Road" model - which - in my opinion - is the best combination of off-road capability (suspension & rear-locker), simplicity, and value. The TRD Pro has some nice features, but the softer suspension reduces payload a bit, and you can't get the simpler H-VAC controls. Its my wife's daily driver - so I don't drive it that much - but I like it a lot more than my Tacoma. My Wrangler was better off-road, but much worse at everything else (interior space, noise, on-road comfort). I've still never owned an automatic transmission as my personal vehicle, but I'm tired of limiting my options based on what vehicle comes with a manual transmission. The ZF 8-speed is the first auto in an off-roader that I'm actually excited about - it works great in the new Wranglers, the Power Wagon, and I expect it to be great in the Grenadier. Lastly, if you are underwhelmed with the power output in the 4-Runner, for $8,000 you can get a dealer-installed supercharger, that bumps power to around 360 horsepower and 375 pound-feet of torque (I don't remember the exact numbers).
Good write up.

Yes, after shopping around the 4R was at the top of our list. Power wasn't really a concern, reported fuel consumption more so. Loved all those traits you mentioned plus the cargo area and rear window for the dog, the near truck like feel, and the old school lack of tech in the cab. Guess the only hesitation was the seats weren't 100% and the wait and see of a rumoured redesign end of 2021. Funny, I went through that waiting game for a 1 ton Toyota diesel pick up - which never happened in NA.

I actually had a 1st gen 4Runner, bought new when I was a toddler. Really, really wanted an HJ60 but a strong Yen at the time kept increasing the price. Too bad because that year had the new, sweet 6 cylinder diesel (Canada)...sigh. Still had some fun in that 4Runner tho 😀

Wife always liked (read wanted) the Defender and remembers the older LRs around, back in the day. So you can see where this is going re the Grenadier... but we'll see when we get there with pricing for my market and initial owner feedback.
 

stickshifter

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Good write up.

Yes, after shopping around the 4R was at the top of our list. Power wasn't really a concern, reported fuel consumption more so. Loved all those traits you mentioned plus the cargo area and rear window for the dog, the near truck like feel, and the old school lack of tech in the cab. Guess the only hesitation was the seats weren't 100% and the wait and see of a rumoured redesign end of 2021. Funny, I went through that waiting game for a 1 ton Toyota diesel pick up - which never happened in NA.

I actually had a 1st gen 4Runner, bought new when I was a toddler. Really, really wanted an HJ60 but a strong Yen at the time kept increasing the price. Too bad because that year had the new, sweet 6 cylinder diesel (Canada)...sigh. Still had some fun in that 4Runner tho 😀

Wife always liked (read wanted) the Defender and remembers the older LRs around, back in the day. So you can see where this is going re the Grenadier... but we'll see when we get there with pricing for my market and initial owner feedback.
Yeah, fuel consumption is not great with the 4-Runner. It seems that the last generation of Toyota off-road vehicles all had bullet-proof power trains, but lousy fuel economy (the 5.7 V8 in the 200-series Land Cruiser, and the 4.0 V6 in the 4-Runner). I refer to the current 4-Runner as "last generation" because (as you said) it is on the way out. In its place is going to come a much more techy version, that will be lighter, and with a smaller forced induction engine. It will be a similar re-vision as the Land Cruiser went through (the 300-seres has more tech, is lighter weight, and has a smaller forced induction engine than the 200-series). The first Toyota off-roader to go through this transition was the Tacoma; the 3rd Gen Tacoma lost its fully-boxed frame in favor of a lighter C-channel, lost the old reliable - if thirsty - 4.0 V6 and got a 3.5 V6 that has no torque below 3200 rpm, and lost a manual transfer case in favor of a dial and an electronic system that is slow to engage 4-lo. In my opinion, the 3rd Gen Tacoma is riding on the reputation of previous generation Tacomas and other excellent Toyota off-road vehicles. I think it will have the shortest production period of any Tacoma, and I expect a 4th Gen soon - probably with a forced induction 4-cylinder engine - similar to the excellent 2.7 Inline 4-cylinder in the 2023 Chevy Colorado (also used in the full-size Chevy Silverado).

Toyota Tacoma naturally aspirated 3.5 V6: 278 hp / 265 pound-feet of torque.
Chevy Colorado turbo-charged 2.7 I4 (high output): 310 hp / 430 pound-feet of torque.

If you want a 4-Runner because you prioritize simplicity, reliability, and relatively "old-school" tech, I'd say buy one now before they are gone. I think the price of the used 4.0 liter 4-Runners will go up just like the price of used 200-series Land Cruisers and FJ-Cruisers here in North America have gone up; a lot of people still want an "old-school" off-road vehicle. A 2014 FJ-Cruiser recently sold for $50,000 not far from where I live. The two major downsides to the current 4-Runner are the 5-speed transmission (way out of date), and the fuel economy. If you are really into off-roading, then the lack of a solid front axle, and the lack of a front locker are also downsides.

The downsides of the 4-Runner are probably what have you (like me) very interested in the Grenadier. The ZF 8-speed seems to be the best automatic transmission available in an off-road vehicle. We don't know how the Grenadier drives on-road, and maybe the IFS of the 4-Runner will handle better on-road than the solid front axle in the Grenadier. If that is the case, then one has to decide which upside to prioritize, and which downside is something one can live with.

As to fuel-economy in the Grenadier, we really don't know yet. I am not overly optimistic about fuel-economy, but I don't think it will be so bad that I won't buy it. Here in North America, real-world fuel economy in forced induction engines is always worse than what the EPA lists for the vehicle. The EPA test does not spend much time with the engine in higher-boost, and so fuel economy looks okay. Most people get into the boost more that the EPA, and see worse fuel economy. This is especially true if you live at elevation, tow a lot, or like "spirited" driving 😁
 

Greg

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Yes 10 years of climate change denial by our previous government severely curtailed investment in large scale renewable energy.
Household solar however has being going crazy. Just about every house in our suburb has panels on the roof. But up here in FNQ we do get a lot of sun - more than enough to cover our needs for a good part of the year.
But it would be nice to have some form of electric vehicle so our excess generation does not go to the Electricity company for a few cents a kWk, which they sell back to me for more than 3 times the price when we do need to take from the grid.
Maybe a little electric sports car for the wife or an electric motorbike for me.
something like this maybe...
 

MileHigh

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It is crazy that it has taken this long for Toyota to update the 4Runner. And frankly, they could have dropped a better transmission in a few years ago and it would still be relevant. Frankly, outside of the transmission I would have bought it over the Wrangler in 2021.

The issue is that the next 4Runner is bound to be some turbo/hybrid not-what-I -want vehicle.

As to the current Defender, which model is the closest to the IG?
 

painter

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Yeah, fuel consumption is not great with the 4-Runner. It seems that the last generation of Toyota off-road vehicles all had bullet-proof power trains, but lousy fuel economy (the 5.7 V8 in the 200-series Land Cruiser, and the 4.0 V6 in the 4-Runner). I refer to the current 4-Runner as "last generation" because (as you said) it is on the way out. In its place is going to come a much more techy version, that will be lighter, and with a smaller forced induction engine. It will be a similar re-vision as the Land Cruiser went through (the 300-seres has more tech, is lighter weight, and has a smaller forced induction engine than the 200-series). The first Toyota off-roader to go through this transition was the Tacoma; the 3rd Gen Tacoma lost its fully-boxed frame in favor of a lighter C-channel, lost the old reliable - if thirsty - 4.0 V6 and got a 3.5 V6 that has no torque below 3200 rpm, and lost a manual transfer case in favor of a dial and an electronic system that is slow to engage 4-lo. In my opinion, the 3rd Gen Tacoma is riding on the reputation of previous generation Tacomas and other excellent Toyota off-road vehicles. I think it will have the shortest production period of any Tacoma, and I expect a 4th Gen soon - probably with a forced induction 4-cylinder engine - similar to the excellent 2.7 Inline 4-cylinder in the 2023 Chevy Colorado (also used in the full-size Chevy Silverado).

Toyota Tacoma naturally aspirated 3.5 V6: 278 hp / 265 pound-feet of torque.
Chevy Colorado turbo-charged 2.7 I4 (high output): 310 hp / 430 pound-feet of torque.

If you want a 4-Runner because you prioritize simplicity, reliability, and relatively "old-school" tech, I'd say buy one now before they are gone. I think the price of the used 4.0 liter 4-Runners will go up just like the price of used 200-series Land Cruisers and FJ-Cruisers here in North America have gone up; a lot of people still want an "old-school" off-road vehicle. A 2014 FJ-Cruiser recently sold for $50,000 not far from where I live. The two major downsides to the current 4-Runner are the 5-speed transmission (way out of date), and the fuel economy. If you are really into off-roading, then the lack of a solid front axle, and the lack of a front locker are also downsides.

The downsides of the 4-Runner are probably what have you (like me) very interested in the Grenadier. The ZF 8-speed seems to be the best automatic transmission available in an off-road vehicle. We don't know how the Grenadier drives on-road, and maybe the IFS of the 4-Runner will handle better on-road than the solid front axle in the Grenadier. If that is the case, then one has to decide which upside to prioritize, and which downside is something one can live with.

As to fuel-economy in the Grenadier, we really don't know yet. I am not overly optimistic about fuel-economy, but I don't think it will be so bad that I won't buy it. Here in North America, real-world fuel economy in forced induction engines is always worse than what the EPA lists for the vehicle. The EPA test does not spend much time with the engine in higher-boost, and so fuel economy looks okay. Most people get into the boost more that the EPA, and see worse fuel economy. This is especially true if you live at elevation, tow a lot, or like "spirited" driving 😁
I understand and agree with what you are saying about the "last gen" 4Runner. Had we strong enough need/desire to buy at that time the current 4R would have beat out Wrangler and Bronco (for us).

Interesting about the current Tacoma. I'm more familiar with domestic full size light trucks and they seem to just keep improving capabilities, from payload to mpg.

Speaking of which, I imagine the 4R and Gren having very similar fuel consumption. Meaning, in 2022 = abysmal. Although noted the IG has more power, is heavier, full time 4x4 and appears less aerodynamic.

I have some difficulty with Toyota for letting it ride - not addressing crappy fuel consumption (which hurts the daily driver), and other updates - for so many years. They have the resources to do better but seem content to keep milking the cow as it were. Perhaps the latest delay is to gauge and address the success of the Bronco. Who knows, maybe on some trims they'll still offer the 4.0L but with the new transmission. Only #1 Toyota knows the what and why.

The Grenadier OTOH, I'm mostly okay with claimed fuel consumption. It's new and exciting project, and they seem to be really working to put together an awesome 4wheeler. I can forgive starting out with 'retro' fuel consumption.

And agree, I would expect typical consumption it to be worse than stated. But also that that won't be a budget buster for most buyers (would Sir Jim care ?). Biggest consequence of course will be range (for some markets ;)) For that reason alone I'd go diesel especially if we had the no-up-charge choice.

Ride and off roading ?, you're right, gonna depend on the individual. I think though, it will work for us on both counts. Price as well as ease and practicality of ownership are other considerations we'll have think about.
 

stickshifter

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I understand and agree with what you are saying about the "last gen" 4Runner. Had we strong enough need/desire to buy at that time the current 4R would have beat out Wrangler and Bronco (for us).

Interesting about the current Tacoma. I'm more familiar with domestic full size light trucks and they seem to just keep improving capabilities, from payload to mpg.

Speaking of which, I imagine the 4R and Gren having very similar fuel consumption. Meaning, in 2022 = abysmal. Although noted the IG has more power, is heavier, full time 4x4 and appears less aerodynamic.

I have some difficulty with Toyota for letting it ride - not addressing crappy fuel consumption (which hurts the daily driver), and other updates - for so many years. They have the resources to do better but seem content to keep milking the cow as it were. Perhaps the latest delay is to gauge and address the success of the Bronco. Who knows, maybe on some trims they'll still offer the 4.0L but with the new transmission. Only #1 Toyota knows the what and why.

The Grenadier OTOH, I'm mostly okay with claimed fuel consumption. It's new and exciting project, and they seem to be really working to put together an awesome 4wheeler. I can forgive starting out with 'retro' fuel consumption.

And agree, I would expect typical consumption it to be worse than stated. But also that that won't be a budget buster for most buyers (would Sir Jim care ?). Biggest consequence of course will be range (for some markets ;)) For that reason alone I'd go diesel especially if we had the no-up-charge choice.

Ride and off roading ?, you're right, gonna depend on the individual. I think though, it will work for us on both counts. Price as well as ease and practicality of ownership are other considerations we'll have think about.
Well said. I have owned many Toyotas, but I am also pretty frustrated with them now. They could have put an 8-speed transmission in the 4-Runner ages ago, and this would have helped fuel economy and overall driveability of the vehicle, and they consistently seem to do as little as possible to keep the Tacoma competitive: the 3.5 was a poor choice for a truck and its performance is the worst in the class, the new frame is flexy, tire options are limited and have fallen way behind other midsize trucks (Jeep, Chevy, and Ford's next Ranger), the seating position has remained a grievance among even die-hard Tacoma fans, it still has drum brakes in the rear, which Toyota says are better off-road (but all their other top off-road vehicles, like the Landcruiser, FJ Cruiser, and 4-Runner have disc brakes in the rear), and the latest Tacoma doesn't seem to have the same reliability of previous generations. But Tacomas are the best-selling midsize truck in the U.S. and - at least around here - the 4-Runner is enormously popular, so until consumers vote with their wallets, Toyota has little incentive to change.

Despite all that bitching, I'm very happy with our 4-Runner (except the transmission), and I wish that our Tacoma had been built to the same spec and quality as the 4-Runner. Most Landcruisers, 4-Runners, and FJ-Cruisers are built in Japan. Sadly, American-made Tacomas have no where near the quality as the 4x4s made in the Japanese factories.
 
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