Front Drive Shaft Update

[pmatusov]

Something like the C clip used on early Chevy 10 bolt or early Toyota diffs that held the drive axles and bearings in the housing at the diff would be a solution for the circlip. There is a lot more force put on c clip from an axle then a drive shaft would ever produce.

It is probably the first plausible idea in this thread!
However... The clip used in the current (nearly all) CV joint is installed on the shaft before mating it with the joint, so the 10-bolt-style C-clip cannot be installed the same way. It is not clear if it can be installed even if the CV joint's "backside" is accessible.

All in all, c-clip failures are baffling here. The driveshaft should never experience any significant compressing or extending force. Either the groove is too shallow or the clip was never seated properly.

 

[acky]

surely its a case of boot fails, grease exits the chat, heat and metal on metal fatigue causes the c-clip to depart

 

[globalgregors]

I have just spoken to the supplier of the Eibach (grey standard) springs that I have fitted and they have spoken to Ineos with regard to the lift that these springs create, there would be no warranty issue if the clip or CV fails. These springs are the same size as the originals but the lift comes from there extra strength, less sag. I fitted these for load and towing weight, so far so good.
The supplier stated that the vehicles especially the QM are certain to have GVM upgrades and isn't that what Ineos Grenadier is about.

We have >60,000kms of often hard use on a pre-production set of those springs with no sign of issues. Touch wood.

I’m harbouring a theory that the additional weight of the diesel + roo bar + winch + expedition fit out alleviates the problem by reducing the range of travel in practical terms. Well, to be clear not reducing the range obviously but shifting the static point versus bump/droop min-max. Not an engineer however so one defers to the room on that.

 

[pmatusov]

surely its a case of boot fails, grease exits the chat, heat and metal on metal fatigue causes the c-clip to depart

There's a perfect counter-example to your explanation in this thread.

 

[Dokatd]

Keep in mind there are nearly if not zero diff side clip failures. So far testing shows the CV does not get excessively hot except when the grease leaves the chat. It's the binding of the joint that causes both boot and clip failure.

 

[theox]

We have >60,000kms of often hard use on a pre-production set of those springs with no sign of issues. Touch wood.

I’m harbouring a theory that the additional weight of the diesel + roo bar + winch + expedition fit out alleviates the problem by reducing the range of travel in practical terms. Well, to be clear not reducing the range obviously but shifting the static point versus bump/droop min-max. Not an engineer however so one defers to the room on that.

This is excellent IA sales technique to drive purchases of roo bars and winches. I'm in.

 

[255/85]

I think one possible solution to the problem of the shaft coming out of the CV joint is to replace the C-clip with a bolt like the one I posted earlier.
Why delegate such a risky and hard work to a C-clip?

I said as much a month ago...

2

Post in thread 'Front Drive Shaft Update'

Oct 18, 2025

That exactly what happens if the C-clip fails.

General question: Would a heavier snap ring help avoid complete failure once the boot has torn and the grease is gone? The groove would have to be cut wider. I trust it's not a true C-clip on the original joint. Only a full circle snap ring has any chance of staying in place. The Teraflex unit comes with a snap ring.

What about tapping the end of the shaft for a class 10.9 bolt and a heavy washer plate the same diameter as the snap ring as a secondary safety feature?

• 255/85

 

[Clark Kent]

I have many opinions on this issue. No one is asking me for them but I've shared some anyway .

@Dokatd is right (it is his jam after all).
The CV appears to be at the limits of operating angle. The aftermarket is saying the same thing. There is little tolerance for adding more angle via a suspension lift and if IA's recent comments (shared to @Rok_Dr at an event in Perth) hold any weight there is little tolerance for mishandling of the driveshaft during maintenance. I understand there is only one or two degrees difference between the upper and lower CVs so what affects one is never far away from affecting the other. I think there has been two (?) reports of diff end CV failure just to keep it interesting.

The boot pinching seems like an obvious casualty. You can see how that would happen if the suspension droops or the shaft was allowed to drop while disconnected. The failed clips are a little weirder but it's likely to be another casualty rather than the cause. This is all proven tech. Dana have been doing this design for years and it's not unique to Grenadier.

Whilst instincts might say to make this area stronger via an end bolt, my lizard engineer brain says that will just make the failure even more spectacular. That is to say, if it's going to fail it still will but at a much higher loading with even more damage.

@cmurray's comments are revealing and @Dokatd's recent summary is on point. Craig says the splines were stripped on the CV stub. Did the clip come out then the splines disengaged and stripped the stub, or did the CV jam (binding from @Dokatd's summary) and the spline stub overloaded and stripped? We don't know and probably won't but the clip came out. It doesn't seem to be temperature, metallurgy or lubricant related so a force must be dislodging it from the groove. That force is in all probability the CV having a moment when the operating parts compete for the same space at the limit of travel. The TC (or the diff on overrun) doesn't care that the CV no longer wants to turn. Something has to give to unload the drivetrain. In that sense the clip is acting like a fuse. Call it 5 amps.

Now, replace that clip with say an M8x20 cap screw and plate on the end of the spline stub, assuming something can be made to fit under the cap. Squint your eyes and maybe you can see a cap screw here in place of the clip. Go on, try it .

Nothing else has changed so the unhappy force is still there. If/when the CV runs out of travel it's now being resisted by a much stronger device i.e. the cap screw. The CV is still going to fail but now it's delayed until a higher loading point. We just upgraded the 5 amp fuse to a 50 amp fuse. Now we have good potential to take out the transfer case as well. Errr, no. So I don't think a stronger retaining device like a bolt is a good fix, but I don't have the answer either.

Keep lobbying your agent or dealer or IA directly to get this fixed. Sharing frustrations on here might be cathartic but it isn't actually fixing anything.

Edit: typos.

 

[Logsplitter]

I have many opinions on this issue. No one is asking me for them but I've shared some anyway .

@Dokatd is right (it is his jam after all).
The CV appears to be at the limits of operating angle. The aftermarket is saying the same thing. There is little tolerance for adding more angle via a suspension lift and if IA's recent comments (shared to @Rok_Dr at an event in Perth) hold any weight there is little tolerance for mishandling of the driveshaft during maintenance. I understand there is only one or two degrees difference between the upper and lower CVs so what affects one is never far away from affecting the other. I think there has been two (?) reports of diff end CV failure just to keep it interesting.

The boot pinching seems like an obvious casualty. You can see how that would happen if the suspension droops or the shaft was allowed to drop while disconnected. The failed clips are a little weirder but it's likely to be another casualty rather than the cause. This is all proven tech. Dana have been doing this design for years and it's not unique to Grenadier.

Whilst instincts might say to make this area stronger via an end bolt, my lizard engineer brain says that will just make the failure even more spectacular. That is to say, if it's going to fail it still will but at a much higher loading with even more damage.

@cmurray's comments are revealing and @Dokatd's recent summary is on point. Craig says the splines were stripped on the CV stub. Did the clip come out then the splines disengaged and stripped the stub, or did the CV jam (binding from @Dokatd's summary) and the spline stub overloaded and stripped? We don't know and probably won't but the clip came out. It doesn't seem to be temperature, metallurgy or lubricant related so a force must be dislodging it from the groove. That force is in all probability the CV having a moment when the operating parts compete for the same space at the limit of travel. The TC (or the diff on overrun) doesn't care that the CV no longer wants to turn. Something has to give to unload the drivetrain. In that sense the clip is acting like a fuse. Call it 5 amps.

Now, replace that clip with say an M8x20 cap screw and plate on the end of the spline stub, assuming something can be made to fit under the cap. Squint your eyes and maybe you can see a cap screw here in place of the clip. Go on, try it .

View attachment 7913959

Nothing else has changed so the unhappy force is still there. If/when the CV runs out of travel it's now being resisted by a much stronger device i.e. the cap screw. The CV is still going to fail but now it's delayed until a higher loading point. We just upgraded the 5 amp fuse to a 50 amp fuse. Now we have good potential to take out the transfer case as well. Errr, no. So I don't think a stronger retaining device like a bolt is a good fix, but I don't have the answer either.

Keep lobbying your agent or dealer or IA directly to get this fixed. Sharing frustrations on here might be cathartic but it isn't actually fixing anything.

Edit: typos.

Agreed totally. Emai Ineos and your agent, as I and some others have done. Make noise or nothing will get done.

 

[ECrider]

It's like a chicken and egg, did my boot fail allowing circlip to fatigue or did my circlip fatigue allowing my boot to slice open.

Along the lines of Alan Partridge and 'an idea for a tv show'; Wolfbox G9000 Quadcam - place your fourth camera to monitor your frontshaft boot and get to see real time playback of your next failure!

 

[Clark Kent]

It's like a chicken and egg, did my boot fail allowing circlip to fatigue or did my circlip fatigue allowing my boot to slice open.

Along the lines of Alan Partridge and 'an idea for a tv show'; Wolfbox G9000 Quadcam - place your fourth camera to monitor your frontshaft boot and get to see real time playback of your next failure!

I'm going back to analysing aircraft crashes.

 

[ECrider]

@Clark Kent reading your thoughts I think you are right re stronger retaining measures. It would seem just to be delaying the inevitable/masking the more serious issue(s). Like a steroid injection. We need to know the cause and rectify that. Any possible increase of force for failure would be unwise.

 

[cmurray]

@cmurray's comments are revealing and @Dokatd's recent summary is on point. Craig says the splines were stripped on the CV stub. Did the clip come out then the splines disengaged and stripped the stub, or did the CV jam (binding from @Dokatd's summary) and the spline stub overloaded and stripped?

In my case, the c-clip definitely failed first. It only stripped about a third of the length of the splines, so my guess is there was too much load on too little surface area whilst scrabbling up a the last climb in the video below. The climb starts around 4:36. (Note this isn't my video)

If you look at the photo below, you can see it's only stripped the splines closest to the camera.

I didn't notice any grease underneath the car whilst pulling the prop shaft out. The rubber boot came cleanly out of the CV, so it only failed when the splines stripped, which allowed the CV to rotate separately to the rest of the prop shaft. The dirt in the grease is from the drive out of the track, as I initially couldn't get the CV off the transfer case, so I just bolted it back on and drove out in 2WD.

 

[NQ94]

It's like a chicken and egg, did my boot fail allowing circlip to fatigue or did my circlip fatigue allowing my boot to slice open.

Along the lines of Alan Partridge and 'an idea for a tv show'; Wolfbox G9000 Quadcam - place your fourth camera to monitor your frontshaft boot and get to see real time playback of your next failure!

Grenadier Shaft Cam, that's a genre with few happy endings.

 

[Greasemonkey]

I just happened to see the attached YouTube video. I know we have a different clip, but perhaps it rotates precisely in the same way in its groove, and depending on where the open end points, it could get jammed and pop off under certain circumstances.

View: https://youtu.be/Qo4aeTEFGZs?si=ufl4osXHmeIAjceO

 

[ECrider]

Further inspection shows boot damage not noticed before. Could've easily happened before or after circlip let go.

 

[255/85]

I have many opinions on this issue. No one is asking me for them but I've shared some anyway .

@Dokatd is right (it is his jam after all).
The CV appears to be at the limits of operating angle. The aftermarket is saying the same thing. There is little tolerance for adding more angle via a suspension lift and if IA's recent comments (shared to @Rok_Dr at an event in Perth) hold any weight there is little tolerance for mishandling of the driveshaft during maintenance. I understand there is only one or two degrees difference between the upper and lower CVs so what affects one is never far away from affecting the other. I think there has been two (?) reports of diff end CV failure just to keep it interesting.

The boot pinching seems like an obvious casualty. You can see how that would happen if the suspension droops or the shaft was allowed to drop while disconnected. The failed clips are a little weirder but it's likely to be another casualty rather than the cause. This is all proven tech. Dana have been doing this design for years and it's not unique to Grenadier.

Whilst instincts might say to make this area stronger via an end bolt, my lizard engineer brain says that will just make the failure even more spectacular. That is to say, if it's going to fail it still will but at a much higher loading with even more damage.

@cmurray's comments are revealing and @Dokatd's recent summary is on point. Craig says the splines were stripped on the CV stub. Did the clip come out then the splines disengaged and stripped the stub, or did the CV jam (binding from @Dokatd's summary) and the spline stub overloaded and stripped? We don't know and probably won't but the clip came out. It doesn't seem to be temperature, metallurgy or lubricant related so a force must be dislodging it from the groove. That force is in all probability the CV having a moment when the operating parts compete for the same space at the limit of travel. The TC (or the diff on overrun) doesn't care that the CV no longer wants to turn. Something has to give to unload the drivetrain. In that sense the clip is acting like a fuse. Call it 5 amps.

Now, replace that clip with say an M8x20 cap screw and plate on the end of the spline stub, assuming something can be made to fit under the cap. Squint your eyes and maybe you can see a cap screw here in place of the clip. Go on, try it .

View attachment 7913959

Nothing else has changed so the unhappy force is still there. If/when the CV runs out of travel it's now being resisted by a much stronger device i.e. the cap screw. The CV is still going to fail but now it's delayed until a higher loading point. We just upgraded the 5 amp fuse to a 50 amp fuse. Now we have good potential to take out the transfer case as well. Errr, no. So I don't think a stronger retaining device like a bolt is a good fix, but I don't have the answer either.

Keep lobbying your agent or dealer or IA directly to get this fixed. Sharing frustrations on here might be cathartic but it isn't actually fixing anything.

Edit: typos.

@Clark Kent reading your thoughts I think you are right re stronger retaining measures. It would seem just to be delaying the inevitable/masking the more serious issue(s). Like a steroid injection. We need to know the cause and rectify that. Any possible increase of force for failure would be unwise.

Thanks for the responses and reiteration of the possible dangers. I was certainly envisioning a bolt/washer as a possible permanent solution. The set-up is used on several four wheel drive front stub axles here in the States when manufacturers have shortened spindles for aesthetics, etc. leaving no room for a snap ring. Those outer stub axles are safely contained in the spindle/knuckle assembly and are also rotating at a reduced rpm from that of the front prop shaft due to gearing so there aren't any serious worries.

But I was also hoping for more time between boot failure and shaft failure because that seems to be an unknown or inconsistent quantity. A prop shaft retaining hoop (ala NHRA/drag racing) would still be advised as the actual issue isn't solved by a bolt/washer.

Perhaps it's been suggested before but I'm now wondering about the value of a slightly larger diameter CV joint on the order of 1" or 25mm. There seems to be room (on casual inspection in the wet pre-dawn hours this morning) and shouldn't introduce any vibration or rubbing as the CV spins in place. Only the splined stub end of the actual shaft changes position. Would the resulting 1/2" (12.5mm) radius leave substantially more room for the boot and help prevent pinching at full axle droop? Yes, a new, larger front transfer box output flange would be required but the cost would be minimal for Ineos. Any thoughts?