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Front Drive Shaft Update

I am working on a complex rear locker failure as well, no one else may encounter. I am getting a new rear end so they can study the old one. That is wonderful, and coolant tanks are replaced, mirror control...I am very happy with all that. But this driveshaft thing is a killer, and existing customers need a resolution. I expected issues, but knew most parts were pretty high quality. No one could know of such a major, and frankly dangerous engineering flaw. When I get it back in a few weeks I am starting an NTSB complaint. It has to happen.
 
I am working on a complex rear locker failure as well, no one else may encounter. I am getting a new rear end so they can study the old one. That is wonderful, and coolant tanks are replaced, mirror control...I am very happy with all that. But this driveshaft thing is a killer, and existing customers need a resolution. I expected issues, but knew most parts were pretty high quality. No one could know of such a major, and frankly dangerous engineering flaw. When I get it back in a few weeks I am starting an NTSB complaint. It has to happen.
Please can you elaborate on what symptons were exprienced with the diff lock failure? There has been a one or two noisy diffs or excessive metal in the oil mentioned through various forums, but none that have totally failed.
 
So initially the rear diff lock seemed a little hard to disengage. Not particularly disconcerting as rear lockers can be hard to disengage at times. Then, I got off the trails in Moab and was like wow, that was brutal today getting it unlocked. One evening I grabbed the head mechanic for Warner Ineos to take him back to the shop and check a few things, we started turning off the highway and the rear diff locked solid and the dash of course lit up. We looked at each other like what in the hell was that, that cannot happen! We spent the entire night testing it over and over, and on another test drive it did it again, although came out easier. We tested it over and over and it would be incredibly hard to unlock most of the time, although it did properly work twice. We even jacked it up in a crazy, sketchy manner and could not get it too unlock off the ground. Not much you can read with the Ineos software as most is locked up for engineers only, which is very frustrating. IE: Cannot see switch actuations, wheel speed sensor data ect. We swapped sensors, checked everything we could, and inspected the oil which looked like new, not much metal on the magnet. The other thing is unlocking the center diff should definitely unlock the rear, and it would not. We discovered punching the gas forwards and backwards over and over can eventually coax it out. Then on the last trail, Poison I began to establish new protocols, getting it unlocked earlier(violently) and out of low range to lower tension. Hans Peter and I discussed it over and over on the trails, and we decided it had to be mechanical in nature, not electronic. Back in Silverton Colorado I towed my camper up our steep entry hill after Moab and it attempted to lock as I got on the pavement, I did have it in low range, but rear locker off. Now I realized no way this problem is going away. The drive shaft fell apart on a bump on the way home towing. I drove it to Red Noland and its like no one would communicate, they could not see a problem. Then a week later, BAM it locked up for a bit on pavement as they were test driving it thank goodness. They called and said, engineers say change the oil.....I am like nope, that aint going to do it and we did that at 2:30AM in Moab already and still keeps doing it. Essentially low range or using the locker makes it vulnerable to engage on the road as it seems to build up some tension. So something in the actuator is wonky. To be clear, I don't see this becoming a trend at this point, I think I just got unlucky.
 
So initially the rear diff lock seemed a little hard to disengage. Not particularly disconcerting as rear lockers can be hard to disengage at times. Then, I got off the trails in Moab and was like wow, that was brutal today getting it unlocked. One evening I grabbed the head mechanic for Warner Ineos to take him back to the shop and check a few things, we started turning off the highway and the rear diff locked solid and the dash of course lit up. We looked at each other like what in the hell was that, that cannot happen! We spent the entire night testing it over and over, and on another test drive it did it again, although came out easier. We tested it over and over and it would be incredibly hard to unlock most of the time, although it did properly work twice. We even jacked it up in a crazy, sketchy manner and could not get it too unlock off the ground. Not much you can read with the Ineos software as most is locked up for engineers only, which is very frustrating. IE: Cannot see switch actuations, wheel speed sensor data ect. We swapped sensors, checked everything we could, and inspected the oil which looked like new, not much metal on the magnet. The other thing is unlocking the center diff should definitely unlock the rear, and it would not. We discovered punching the gas forwards and backwards over and over can eventually coax it out. Then on the last trail, Poison I began to establish new protocols, getting it unlocked earlier(violently) and out of low range to lower tension. Hans Peter and I discussed it over and over on the trails, and we decided it had to be mechanical in nature, not electronic. Back in Silverton Colorado I towed my camper up our steep entry hill after Moab and it attempted to lock as I got on the pavement, I did have it in low range, but rear locker off. Now I realized no way this problem is going away. The drive shaft fell apart on a bump on the way home towing. I drove it to Red Noland and its like no one would communicate, they could not see a problem. Then a week later, BAM it locked up for a bit on pavement as they were test driving it thank goodness. They called and said, engineers say change the oil.....I am like nope, that aint going to do it and we did that at 2:30AM in Moab already and still keeps doing it. Essentially low range or using the locker makes it vulnerable to engage on the road as it seems to build up some tension. So something in the actuator is wonky. To be clear, I don't see this becoming a trend at this point, I think I just got unlucky.
Thanks for the info. We have a tractor at work with the same symptoms in the front Carraro axle. It doesn't have a traditional or electronic differental lock but a multi plate LSD auto lock set up. Clean oil and the expected material was found on the magnet. The tech that pulled it apart thought it might be the hub reduction planetary, but no fault was found in the axle DCs no fault was found. They pulled the axle and removed the diff. We checked the axles in the diff on a bench and had difficulty rotating them not because of the LSD. We found the splines twisted on one axle and when the diff was stripped the side and pinion gears had failed giving the locking and unlocking feeling when driving. This tractor is not used for traditional farming or mowing so it does get some abuse. Now it takes up space waiting weeks for a new diff, axles and drive shaft.
 
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So initially the rear diff lock seemed a little hard to disengage. Not particularly disconcerting as rear lockers can be hard to disengage at times. Then, I got off the trails in Moab and was like wow, that was brutal today getting it unlocked. One evening I grabbed the head mechanic for Warner Ineos to take him back to the shop and check a few things, we started turning off the highway and the rear diff locked solid and the dash of course lit up. We looked at each other like what in the hell was that, that cannot happen! We spent the entire night testing it over and over, and on another test drive it did it again, although came out easier. We tested it over and over and it would be incredibly hard to unlock most of the time, although it did properly work twice. We even jacked it up in a crazy, sketchy manner and could not get it too unlock off the ground. Not much you can read with the Ineos software as most is locked up for engineers only, which is very frustrating. IE: Cannot see switch actuations, wheel speed sensor data ect. We swapped sensors, checked everything we could, and inspected the oil which looked like new, not much metal on the magnet. The other thing is unlocking the center diff should definitely unlock the rear, and it would not. We discovered punching the gas forwards and backwards over and over can eventually coax it out. Then on the last trail, Poison I began to establish new protocols, getting it unlocked earlier(violently) and out of low range to lower tension. Hans Peter and I discussed it over and over on the trails, and we decided it had to be mechanical in nature, not electronic. Back in Silverton Colorado I towed my camper up our steep entry hill after Moab and it attempted to lock as I got on the pavement, I did have it in low range, but rear locker off. Now I realized no way this problem is going away. The drive shaft fell apart on a bump on the way home towing. I drove it to Red Noland and its like no one would communicate, they could not see a problem. Then a week later, BAM it locked up for a bit on pavement as they were test driving it thank goodness. They called and said, engineers say change the oil.....I am like nope, that aint going to do it and we did that at 2:30AM in Moab already and still keeps doing it. Essentially low range or using the locker makes it vulnerable to engage on the road as it seems to build up some tension. So something in the actuator is wonky. To be clear, I don't see this becoming a trend at this point, I think I just got unlucky.

I assume the diff lock harness has a plug somewhere near the differential? Unplug and see if you can recreate, if so no question it is mechanical, not electrical. I suspect in the future people who choose to use these for hard core four wheeling will build harnesses to activate the lockers from self installed switches, giving them the ability to actuate them whenever they want, and independent of one another anyway.

Did a quick search, and it seems there are a few threads out there for similar issues with e-lockers in Jeeps..



The reality is that the Eaton e-locker is a weak/poor design. It's nice that you can get a Grenadier Triple Locked, but like so many things IG, there are better ways to do it. I get that an electric locker is more practical for a OEM than an airlocker, but Toyota created an e-locker design that worked well, Eaton on the other hand, not so much. Eaton's design is desirable only because it is cheap compared to better alternatives.
 
Honestly we did not unplug it. We discussed the idea in Moab, but I decided I wanted to wheel some more and see what happens, as well as finish out the trip. If it was locking constantly on road I would have of course. Interesting theory on axle splines. Not sure when they are pulling it out, guessing next week, but will let you know what we find. Seen a lot of abuse off road in 1.5 years of Grenadier ownership at events, and I do not think I was particularly hard on it by comparison. Twisted axle splines would be very disconcerting at this early stage. Only ever had that once, and that rig was abused in ways that would make your blood run cold, and nowhere near as strong as these axles. I really hope its something unique and not a design issue. Lack of other failures in this community give me that hope. Plenty of reliable designs out there for E lockers, including my Power Wagon.
 
Plenty of reliable designs out there for E lockers, including my Power Wagon.

Not saying an e-locker can't work well (already cited Toyota example), but also pretty sure that the lockers used in Jeeps and Power Wagons (while electric) are a different design, manufactured by GKN I think (?)..
 
Here's the pics of the failure
 

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Here's the pics of the failure
F——n hell. Check that gearbox my friend. That’s exactly where I had the small cracks , where the prop hit the gearbox at the attachment points for the plastic pan. And you were just pulling away. At 70mph on a motorway people would die !🤬🤬
Mine snapped at about 30mph and the noise was horrendous
 
That’s virtually the same damage and break point as mine except I lost all the gearbox oil as the gearbox thermostat got damaged. New transfer box Bowden cables required to, as mine. Come on Ineos , you’re watching this . Fix it before something very serious happens.
 
So initially the rear diff lock seemed a little hard to disengage. Not particularly disconcerting as rear lockers can be hard to disengage at times. Then, I got off the trails in Moab and was like wow, that was brutal today getting it unlocked. One evening I grabbed the head mechanic for Warner Ineos to take him back to the shop and check a few things, we started turning off the highway and the rear diff locked solid and the dash of course lit up. We looked at each other like what in the hell was that, that cannot happen! We spent the entire night testing it over and over, and on another test drive it did it again, although came out easier. We tested it over and over and it would be incredibly hard to unlock most of the time, although it did properly work twice. We even jacked it up in a crazy, sketchy manner and could not get it too unlock off the ground. Not much you can read with the Ineos software as most is locked up for engineers only, which is very frustrating. IE: Cannot see switch actuations, wheel speed sensor data ect. We swapped sensors, checked everything we could, and inspected the oil which looked like new, not much metal on the magnet. The other thing is unlocking the center diff should definitely unlock the rear, and it would not. We discovered punching the gas forwards and backwards over and over can eventually coax it out. Then on the last trail, Poison I began to establish new protocols, getting it unlocked earlier(violently) and out of low range to lower tension. Hans Peter and I discussed it over and over on the trails, and we decided it had to be mechanical in nature, not electronic. Back in Silverton Colorado I towed my camper up our steep entry hill after Moab and it attempted to lock as I got on the pavement, I did have it in low range, but rear locker off. Now I realized no way this problem is going away. The drive shaft fell apart on a bump on the way home towing. I drove it to Red Noland and its like no one would communicate, they could not see a problem. Then a week later, BAM it locked up for a bit on pavement as they were test driving it thank goodness. They called and said, engineers say change the oil.....I am like nope, that aint going to do it and we did that at 2:30AM in Moab already and still keeps doing it. Essentially low range or using the locker makes it vulnerable to engage on the road as it seems to build up some tension. So something in the actuator is wonky. To be clear, I don't see this becoming a trend at this point, I think I just got unlucky.
last year when cold (teens Fahrenheit) I had 2-3 instances, where when first using the rig, I'd make a turn at the end of the street, and I had wheels chriping somewhere and I was fighting hard to get the rig to go where I wanted. each time I pulled over, put it in park, and looked around the car to make sure all the wheels were pointed where they should be, and went along my way just fine.

It did it again 2 days ago. I thought maybe a wheel sensor had the antilock brakes trying to keep a lane, but, the tire chirping and hopping around the tight 90 turn this time, reminded me of being locked in 4 on dry pavement... I, wondering if this sounds familiar?
 
That’s virtually the same damage and break point as mine except I lost all the gearbox oil as the gearbox thermostat got damaged. New transfer box Bowden cables required to, as mine. Come on Ineos , you’re watching this . Fix it before something very serious happens.
You think the heat shielded cable in the first 3 photos is one of the bowdens?

I reckon this is going to cause someone to have a serious accident. Sure driveshafts have broken before but I think with the Grenadier it all points to a certain design flaw. Lets say I get a like for like replacement with no upgrade, can't say fills me with confidence. Maybe I'm wrong.....

Will post a few more photos of the shaft itself.
 
Few more of the shaft. Not sure exactly what caused the failure.

You can see grease flung up the shaft.

Note that I had to shear two of the bolts off of the diff side as would not shift.
 

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last year when cold (teens Fahrenheit) I had 2-3 instances, where when first using the rig, I'd make a turn at the end of the street, and I had wheels chriping somewhere and I was fighting hard to get the rig to go where I wanted. each time I pulled over, put it in park, and looked around the car to make sure all the wheels were pointed where they should be, and went along my way just fine.

It did it again 2 days ago. I thought maybe a wheel sensor had the antilock brakes trying to keep a lane, but, the tire chirping and hopping around the tight 90 turn this time, reminded me of being locked in 4 on dry pavement... I, wondering if this sounds familiar?
That sounds very familiar. I would have it checked and documented. Let them know but my case. This could be dangerous at the wrong time.
 
Its interesting to me that my drive shaft melted completely down at 70MPH but thankfully stayed in the truck, these cases where the shaft falls complete out are VERY dangerous. And I had no further damage, but a loose shaft whacking around........Crazy mine was so much worse, but stayed in. Mine might have welded itself in place.
 
Its interesting to me that my drive shaft melted completely down at 70MPH but thankfully stayed in the truck, these cases where the shaft falls complete out are VERY dangerous. And I had no further damage, but a loose shaft whacking around........Crazy mine was so much worse, but stayed in. Mine might have welded itself in place.
I had transmission oil all over the road and had to phone the local council to come to site, to put absorbent granules on the oil spill, before we could leave with the recovery truck. Imagine transmission oil all over a motorway , with vehicles going 70+ mph ! Leave alone the consequences of this happening whilst in the outside lane.
 
That sounds very familiar. I would have it checked and documented. Let them know but my case. This could be dangerous at the wrong time.
ah, yea. I pulled out into traffic doing a tight 90 turn. if someone had been in the turning lane, ida taken them out.

I just called RDS and asked the service manager to look into it.

I don't know how these lockers are built, but I'm wondering if there's a collar or something that could engage under sharp lateral inertia, if a retaining spring or something isn't attached or sufficient.
 
You think the heat shielded cable in the first 3 photos is one of the bowdens?

I reckon this is going to cause someone to have a serious accident. Sure driveshafts have broken before but I think with the Grenadier it all points to a certain design flaw. Lets say I get a like for like replacement with no upgrade, can't say fills me with confidence. Maybe I'm wrong.....

Will post a few more photos of the shaft itself.
Transfer box cables
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