Front Drive Shaft Update

[Logsplitter]

I

Yep, more or less I think.

I'm still baffled by the broken C-clip though. And shocked it held on just long enough for me to get it in my shop.

It was the C-clip that failed on mine apparently. This was two weeks after a service. Going about 30mph and it exploded with a hell of a bang as the prop flailed around.

 

[Dokatd]

I

It was the C-clip that failed on mine apparently. This was two weeks after a service. Going about 30mph and it exploded with a hell of a bang as the prop flailed around.

Yeah, I have heard of a few. But I assumed the clip was improperly installed in those cases. Maybe that was a poor assumption.

Mine was most certainly installed correctly and was only hanging by a prayer. The clip was in pieces. Only a portion was still in the groove. Other parts were embedded into the rear cover. I'm baffled.

 

[Logsplitter]

Yeah, I have heard of a few. But I assumed the clip was improperly installed in those cases. Maybe that was a poor assumption.

Mine was most certainly installed correctly and was only hanging by a prayer. The clip was in pieces. Only a portion was still in the groove. Other parts were embedded into the rear cover. I'm baffled.

I never got an answer as to what caused mine to fail. It was intimated that the C clip failed by the dealer but I never got the answer I asked for from Ineos.

 

[GN4HIR]

It is almost 2:30 a.m., I shouldn't be allowed near a keyboard but.. here I am, unsupervised.

There must be a reason this isn't considered viable but why not 1.) take your case pocket knife out and cut the boot out of the terra CV, and 2.) install a boot like this.. there has to be one of correct size out there already. Talk among yourselves.. and yes, I get it.. it looks like a toilet plunger.

 

[CRH]

It is almost 2:30 a.m., I shouldn't be allowed near a keyboard but.. here I am, unsupervised.

There must be a reason this isn't considered viable but why not 1.) take your case pocket knife out and cut the boot out of the terra CV, and 2.) install a boot like this.. there has to be one of correct size out there already. Talk among yourselves.. and yes, I get it.. it looks like a toilet plunger.



View attachment 7910561

I thought i was stupid for thinking the same answer you have. Trying to get to sleep last night and this was also the answer i came up with. If it is only to hold grease why can't we pack one of these with the stuff and use clips or bands of some description to hold in place.
There must me a simple reason why we can't use one of these

 

[Tazzieman]

I thought i was stupid for thinking the same answer you have. Trying to get to sleep last night and this was also the answer i came up with. If it is only to hold grease why can't we pack one of these with the stuff and use clips or bands of some description to hold in place.
There must me a simple reason why we can't use one of these

If it's no floppier than a wizard's sleeve it shouldn't tear.
Mercedes sell a split boot for the vintage rear pivoting axles to keep the dirt out; split so you don't have to diassemble the axle halves to install it.

 

[OkGo]

Toyota have a couple of boots like that, run for 250k+ miles. Is there a 'protection' case for an embedded one in the IG?

 

[CRH]

Is the aftermarket being more complicated than it needs to be? Can we just have floppy external rubber boot to protect from dirt and water and hold in grease?

 

[terdrocket]

It is almost 2:30 a.m., I shouldn't be allowed near a keyboard but.. here I am, unsupervised.

There must be a reason this isn't considered viable but why not 1.) take your case pocket knife out and cut the boot out of the terra CV, and 2.) install a boot like this.. there has to be one of correct size out there already. Talk among yourselves.. and yes, I get it.. it looks like a toilet plunger.



View attachment 7910561

I had looked around at one of these type of boots wondering if it would be good as an over boot. A second layer of protection. Secure the small end, fill partially with grease, then secure the big end around the outside of the CV.

 

[Krabby]

Is the C clip mild steel? Could the aftermarket make a stronger version from a better material?

 

[Dokatd]

The larger bellows boots will fail pretty quickly. They would have to be 100% full of grease to maintain the grease in the joint. The weight of the grease slinging around is too much for a flexible rubber boot. This is largely a problem on the upper joint as once the grease heats up it basically turns to liquid and will flow down into the boot.

Vehicles like the Gwagon have an intermediate prop shaft between the trans and the T-case. This shaft has the same kind of Rzeppa joint we have. The Mercedes joints have a stiff plastic boot. But the shaft has virtually zero angle on it. So the boot does not need to move much.

Front wheel drive cars have the floppy rubber boots on their front axles, but remember those are after the differential so they turn at far less RPM's than the drive shaft. They also don't have to be 100% packed with grease.

It's a crappy problem to have that could have been easily avoided. A properly designed front axle would have fixed many of the Grenadiers faults and wouldn't have cost any more than the existing axle. Major oversight by Ineos and Magna.

 

[Dokatd]

Is the C clip mild steel? Could the aftermarket make a stronger version from a better material?

The clips are typical hardened steel. The one at the diff doesn't seem to fail. So the T-case side is either heat or stress. My guess is the pressure on the joint allows the splines to wiggle enough that the clip is worked until it cracks. The temporary fix for it all on stock or lifted trucks is going to be a limiting strap setup to reduce overall travel by say 1" or so. Thats should keep the joint from maxing out.

 

[Dokatd]

I really do think this warrants a possible class action. What I am seeing applies to both stock and lifted trucks. They are all stricken, stock trucks just have a bit more time between failures.

 

[ADVAW8S]

I am learning as I read.

I do want to point out that early development they had transfer case overheating issues. Once reasons they added a cooler but also move from a Ineos designed transfer case to Termec.

I needed to learn more about C clips as I knew nothing. It seems the Dana 35 used to use them but stopped because of big failure rate. Would a c clip eliminator work as a solution?

 

[Dokatd]

I am learning as I read.

I do want to point out that early development they had transfer case overheating issues. Once reasons they added a cooler but also move from a Ineos designed transfer case to Termec.

I needed to learn more about C clips as I knew nothing. It seems the Dana 35 used to use them but stopped because of big failure rate. Would a c clip eliminator work as a solution?

Different kind of C-clip. The Dana 35 situation is a clip inside the differential that retains the axle half shafts. When one of those fail the wheels literally fall off. If you have ever seen a tire with an axle shaft still attached rolling down the highway that's almost always a C-clip failure.

The Gren issue is on the drive shaft. It's the small clip that holds the Rzeppa joint on the drive shaft. The scary thing is there could be dozens of them failed right now driving like life is grand. The drive shaft has a slip joint with a stiff boot. The boot causes the shaft to want to expand constantly. So even with a failed C-clip the shaft will want to stay intact. But rough roads etc can work the shaft just enough to allow it to bind and then finally fall out or fail the joint.

Sadly there is not a solid check for this from my observations. My clip was one good rough road from falling out completely. It would have felt fine right up until the remnants of the clip slipped out. Again, my clip was being held in place purely by the surface tension of the grease. I literally touched it with my finger and it slipped out of its slot.

 

[CRH]

Different kind of C-clip. The Dana 35 situation is a clip inside the differential that retains the axle half shafts. When one of those fail the wheels literally fall off. If you have ever seen a tire with an axle shaft still attached rolling down the highway that's almost always a C-clip failure.

The Gren issue is on the drive shaft. It's the small clip that holds the Rzeppa joint on the drive shaft. The scary thing is there could be dozens of them failed right now driving like life is grand. The drive shaft has a slip joint with a stiff boot. The boot causes the shaft to want to expand constantly. So even with a failed C-clip the shaft will want to stay intact. But rough roads etc can work the shaft just enough to allow it to bind and then finally fall out or fail the joint.

Sadly there is not a solid check for this from my observations. My clip was one good rough road from falling out completely. It would have felt fine right up until the remnants of the clip slipped out. Again, my clip was being held in place purely by the surface tension of the grease. I literally touched it with my finger and it slipped out of its slot.

So, do we all go down and have a feel around the shaft in case the rubber has split and the grease is spurting out. Carefully rubbing around the full circumference of the rubber to see if anything is loose.
A quick daily feel, if it's not too wet might help avoid any unwanted accidents

 

[OkGo]

So, do we all go down and have a feel around the shaft in case the rubber has split and the grease is spurting out. Carefully rubbing around the full circumference of the rubber to see if anything is loose.
A quick daily feel, if it's not too wet might help avoid any unwanted accidents

I hope someone is making a list of things to keep an eye on daily, weekly, monthly and maybe half yearly.

 

[255/85]

It is almost 2:30 a.m., I shouldn't be allowed near a keyboard but.. here I am, unsupervised.

There must be a reason this isn't considered viable but why not 1.) take your case pocket knife out and cut the boot out of the terra CV, and 2.) install a boot like this.. there has to be one of correct size out there already. Talk among yourselves.. and yes, I get it.. it looks like a toilet plunger.

I've been thinking the same thing. The problem is two-fold. First is the short length of the stub shaft that inserts into the joint. That needs to be much longer and the "tube" portion needs to be shortened to to allow a long boot with no internal folds. Would there be balancing issues? The second is the amount of grease that would need to be packed into the boot and whether or not that would also introduce new balance issues. The Grenadier is a full time system so the front shaft is always spinning in an unsupported manner as the vehicle is driven at highway speeds. This is not the same as a transverse CV boot on an independent front inner axle shaft.

The part that wears is the shelf that keeps the CV located and firm against the C-clip. The entire "shelf" is the problem. This issue will exist on both stock and lifted trucks. Lift does not change things much at all. It's the total travel of your suspension that causes the issue. So when the front axle is in the air the rubber boot is rubbing and wearing against this shelf.

Which is why a cut and turn won't solve the issue. The angle at the transfer box end would only be reduced a couple of degrees. Caster could be increased so that's great but I no longer think it's the answer to the front shaft issue.

 

[Ovrland Bill]

They are all stricken, stock trucks just have a bit more time between failures.

With my luck, that “time” might be 5 years and one day from delivery.

 

[Dokatd]

Which is why a cut and turn won't solve the issue. The angle at the transfer box end would only be reduced a couple of degrees. Caster could be increased so that's great but I no longer think it's the answer to the front shaft issue.

A Cut and Turn would absolutely solve the problem. Turning the pinion up to the point that it aims directly at or just above the T-case flange would fix all of this. Then you could also get real caster numbers.