General Diesel or Petrol

[PanoramaJJ]

Good morning, friends!
Every technology has its advantages and its disadvantages. For a long trip through the desert I prefer the Diesel (I am living in Europe) - my personal opinion. We have problems in Germany, that is right. But I don´t want to get political in THIS forum. Today I want to give to you, what I was reading last year:

Auto, Motor und Sport, Driving Report INEOS GRENADIER – 2022:
"In contrast, the diesel looks noticeably more hot-headed. An enormously spontaneous, almost brutal start with powerful power from the cellar."

Sure, the diesel will be a little bit slower than the petrol engine, but I think you won´t feel it. A massive plateau of torque - I love this"
Well, and maybe, I will call my INEOS "BI FIFTYSEVEN", too ...?

DRIVE WHAT YOU WANT AND WHERE YOU WANT - AND HAVE FUN!
See You!

 

[To]

The Greens in Germany have always had the deindustrialization of Germany in mind. And all the idiots which get their license to vote just because they are over 18 years old, followed (and still follow) them like the lemmings.

Now, Robert Habeck, a green children book author, is our minister of economy. And thus, the green agenda is on schedule.

Yes, we need Feng Shui more than ever, maybe together with some free hashish or mariuhana to take things easy.

That seems to be their plan.

Hey emax
I have read very little nonsense in this forum. But you clearly take the cake with your statement about the Greens. Are you not following the current crisis in Ukraine? Do the Greens seem to want to deindustrialize Germany? This is a forum about the Grenadier, not about your crude thoughts on politics.

 

[Tazzieman]

AND HAVE FUN!

As I enter my golden years, this is all I strive for.
My generation , and the previous generations , have failed to save the world - thus it's ever man (or woman) for themselves!
Run for the hills in a Grenadier!

 

[Tazzieman]

My Tesla has a lithium ferro phosphate battery, no nickel or cobalt, 6 times the longevity and much lower fire risk as well as no need to worry about charging to 100% - basically leave it plugged in all the time. I wouldn’t buy a battery electric car with any other battery type at the moment.

I don't even know or care what sort of battery my wife's Volvo has.
I chop down trees to heat my home in winter , but I don't have to use power to cool my house in summer.
We all have our circumstances and points of view , and virtue signalling never saved anything!

 

[cheswick]

My Tesla has a lithium ferro phosphate battery, no nickel or cobalt, 6 times the longevity and much lower fire risk as well as no need to worry about charging to 100% - basically leave it plugged in all the time. I wouldn’t buy a battery electric car with any other battery type at the moment.

A majority of the worlds lithium and iron production comes from Australia so no concerns about treatment of workers, etc. Sadly this chemistry is nowhere near as energy dense as NMC, etc so won’t be too useful for larger vehicles like trucks/lorries where for every lost kg of payload the profitability diminishes.

 

[klarie]

Hm.. this thread was interesting to follow.. but there are a couple of statements that are bugging me.
We should avoid too much political stuff, ideology .. what to me seems idiotology, ent emotionalism.
So .. stick to to engineering capability.. physics and what’s feasible.
An electric engine can produce enormous amounts of torque and power from first revolution. It’s very quiet, low number of parts, low maintenance and should be reliable.. ok.. and no local emissions..
The worse part, for any side and Support, heaters, a/c, power steering, .. additional motors and servo are required driving pumps .. etc. services that a combustion engine delivers as service..
So downside is always energy.. a battery has very low energy density, subject to go off in flames, low range and long charging time, production, getting raw materials.. high weight. So unsuitable for an off-road vehicle that is used for overlanding and in hefty activity.
Hydrogen? High explosive.. tendency to decarbonate steel pressure safety tanks..
No matter if a Diesel Engine becomes directly converted to burn H2 or if a FuellCell stack is used to feed an electric engine.. this problem persists and must be resolved.
There is Methanol.. and a Methanol Direct Fuel Cell converting Methanol to Electric Energy, .. not as explosive as H2.. no pressure tanks and decarbonizing, still a quite dangerous stuff and no supply infrastructure.
So either e fuel-Diesel or e-petrol/-gas seem feasible or someone invents safe a fusion or nuke generator of the size of a typical pilots case or attaché case.. what is unlikely in near future. And perhaps also not liked by the oil industry.
That is reality.
Somthing speculative .. we had and I repeat this.. and we discussed this in another thread already only a few weeks ago: the general intention is to demobilize the population to gain control. The resources shall be reserved for a certain group of society. Remember.. the EU has exempted private jets and yachts from certain taxes CO2 etc.
Last climate conference guests went there with a high number of private jet aircraft. Same applies to WEF Davos (CH) and other regular conferences and meetings.. If you do not believe me.. verify yourself. There are plenty of resources confirming this. So use the fuel that is possible and suit your need. Personally I stick with Diesel. Last petrol engine I used was last millennium

 

[Tazzieman]

The EU sounds like a totally shit place to live. I'm sorry for your loss of freedom.

 

[emax]

I agree on the part that we should avoid political topics. There is too much ideology involved.
This once was my own suggestion here and I had better stick to it. That doesn't mean that I withdraw anything.

But time will tell.

 

[Krabby]

Barman’s rules - no politics and no religion. Makes for a much more civil establishment.

 

[bemax]

Let’s just agree on the fact that at the moment a combustion engine is the only proper engine for a 4x4 made for towing and overlanding. Especially for people who have to work for their money and do not have enough of it to not think about it.
Maybe in some years the BEV will become (more than) competitive. But right know they are not for the purpose people buy a Grenadier for.

 

[DaveB]

Hm.. this thread was interesting to follow.. but there are a couple of statements that are bugging me.
We should avoid too much political stuff, ideology .. what to me seems idiotology, ent emotionalism.
So .. stick to to engineering capability.. physics and what’s feasible.
An electric engine can produce enormous amounts of torque and power from first revolution. It’s very quiet, low number of parts, low maintenance and should be reliable.. ok.. and no local emissions..
The worse part, for any side and Support, heaters, a/c, power steering, .. additional motors and servo are required driving pumps .. etc. services that a combustion engine delivers as service..
So downside is always energy.. a battery has very low energy density, subject to go off in flames, low range and long charging time, production, getting raw materials.. high weight. So unsuitable for an off-road vehicle that is used for overlanding and in hefty activity.
Hydrogen? High explosive.. tendency to decarbonate steel pressure safety tanks..
No matter if a Diesel Engine becomes directly converted to burn H2 or if a FuellCell stack is used to feed an electric engine.. this problem persists and must be resolved.
There is Methanol.. and a Methanol Direct Fuel Cell converting Methanol to Electric Energy, .. not as explosive as H2.. no pressure tanks and decarbonizing, still a quite dangerous stuff and no supply infrastructure.
So either e fuel-Diesel or e-petrol/-gas seem feasible or someone invents safe a fusion or nuke generator of the size of a typical pilots case or attaché case.. what is unlikely in near future. And perhaps also not liked by the oil industry.
That is reality.
Somthing speculative .. we had and I repeat this.. and we discussed this in another thread already only a few weeks ago: the general intention is to demobilize the population to gain control. The resources shall be reserved for a certain group of society. Remember.. the EU has exempted private jets and yachts from certain taxes CO2 etc.
Last climate conference guests went there with a high number of private jet aircraft. Same applies to WEF Davos (CH) and other regular conferences and meetings.. If you do not believe me.. verify yourself. There are plenty of resources confirming this. So use the fuel that is possible and suit your need. Personally I stick with Diesel. Last petrol engine I used was last millennium

Are you talking about AC or DC motors?

 

[Tazzieman]

Let’s just agree on the fact that at the moment a combustion engine is the only proper engine for a 4x4 made for towing and overlanding. Especially for people who have to work for their money and do not have enough of it to not think about it.

We are all guessing the future. I might get run over tomorrow. I just do what my gut tells me. Male intuition. It's works about 50% of the time.

 

[klarie]

Are you talking about AC or DC motors?

At of now. DC.. I am not an electrical engineer.. But fact is - tested E-Engines.. Tried it in a Beamer, and Mercedes Benz S-Class Hybrid...
they ve got undeniable huge torque from very beginning. No doubt.. the e-engine by itself has quite some advantages..

 

[Tazzieman]

At of now. DC.. I am not an electrical engineer.. But fact is - tested E-Engines.. Tried it in a Beamer, and Mercedes Benz S-Class Hybrid...
they ve got undeniable huge torque from very beginning. No doubt.. the e-engine by itself has quite some advantages..

Traditionally people have spend big bucks chasing fossil fuel torque. If it's torque you want , an EV will murder fossil.
But obviously there are disadvantages. Drive both forms of propulsion and it is obvious.
I like the noise of petrol or diesel. Problem is , most moderrn ICE cars are quiet and smooth!

 

[cheswick]

Barman’s rules - no politics and no religion. Makes for a much more civil establishment.

Sadly the most banal things like engines, batteries and fuel sources have become political and borderline religious. Kind of hard to avoid these topics in a vehicle community. Just deal in facts, keep it civil and have an open mind. You can discuss anything without flaring emotions if you stick to those principles, hopefully we’re all mature enough to do that.

 

[emax]

The high torque of an electric motor does not exist for nothing. It is always dependent on a high current. A stationary electric motor is simply a short circuit at the very first moment.

Another point not to be neglected is the wear of the tires. Off-road, this may be irrelevant, but in daily use, high torque has a noticeable impact on the cost of a) the energy and b) the tires.

There is no free lunch.

 

[TD5-90]

to your own religion and keep the preaching amongst

Oha ich sehe, eher Stammtischniveau gewuenscht... Bin dann mal raus hier.

Ah, die Stammtisch-Klatsche... Dann tschüss mal!!

 

[Tazzieman]

The high torque of an electric motor does not exist for nothing. It is always dependent on a high current. A stationary electric motor is simply a short circuit at the very first moment.

Another point not to be neglected is the wear of the tires. Off-road, this may be irrelevant, but in daily use, high torque has a noticeable impact on the cost of a) the energy and b) the tires.

There is no free lunch.

We turfed our Merc GLC not just because of rising fuel costs , but also because it chewed tyres/brakes - we live on top of a steep hill , and it was also auto trans. And do not use speed limiter - this causes the brakes to get hammered!
The Volvo EV in 1 pedal drive mode uses engine brakes (it will stop the car on the hill if you leave it coasting for a few seconds)
Thus though the car is heavy I'm anticipating brakes will last a fair while. In most situations, even city traffic, if you drive carefully you don't need to use them.
As my wife drives sensibly , she won't be overstressing the tyres. I hardly drive it enough to make a long term difference.
All these things are worth thinking about on this forum ; Ineos has said they will be building a SWB EV, even though it will be unsuited for proper overlanding/towing.

 

[klarie]

We turfed our Merc GLC not just because of rising fuel costs , but also because it chewed tyres/brakes - we live on top of a steep hill , and it was also auto trans. And do not use speed limiter - this causes the brakes to get hammered!
The Volvo EV in 1 pedal drive mode uses engine brakes (it will stop the car on the hill if you leave it coasting for a few seconds)
Thus though the car is heavy I'm anticipating brakes will last a fair while. In most situations, even city traffic, if you drive carefully you don't need to use them.
As my wife drives sensibly , she won't be overstressing the tyres. I hardly drive it enough to make a long term difference.
All these things are worth thinking about on this forum ; Ineos has said they will be building a SWB EV, even though it will be unsuited for proper overlanding/towing.

Perhaps Ineos Automotive has to do it for perhaps political reason once again. No doubt there is still a lot of development going on in powering and storing electric energy. So in a couple of years we perhaps see EV with 700mls and more w/o recharging. And may shorten the charge time significant.
But as of now we are still away from that. So a proper Overlanding off-road EV .. not in near future.
We repeat a discussion we had here a few times already .. no solution yet. Perhaps we should create a FAQ to frequent discussed topics and put some collected information there .. pls read this first.
In a later phase once IG is at customer there will be a bunch of FAQ topics on equipment, modification such as portal axles, towing.. aftermarket supply..

 

[TD5-90]

I agree on the part that we should avoid political topics. There is too much ideology involved.
This once was my own suggestion here and I had better stick to it. That doesn't mean that I withdraw anything.

But time will tell.

And for the time being let's have fun to confess we are diesel (petrol also welcome!) heads:

The credits for the original idea goes to a guy in unimog-community.de, +10 years ago, unfortunately I'm not able to locate the post.
Modified it a bit and had made some tens of the sticker.
Experience lots of thumbs up when spotted, but also furious greens that couldn't stand (scratched the sticker off of a coworker's car + was caught in action).
Ok I admit: It wasn't my most rational moment when i couldn't resist putting one on the back of a Toyo Prius a long time ago...

A bit of emotion enriches life a lot ;-)