The Grenadier Forum
Register Now for enhanced site access.
INEOS Agents, Dealers or Commercial vendors please contact admin@theineosforum.com for a commercial account.

Winch or not ?

stickshifter

Reservation Holder
Local time
5:37 AM
Joined
Nov 14, 2021
Messages
1,168
Reaction score
2,383
Though the video might be just analytic, I have to say that I have no drive to watch it.

Poor wife and son and friend as well. So terrible.
I understand not wanting to watch the video. The whole thing is just so... horrible. But in case you were wondering, it is not graphic (i.e. no images of the deceased), the video is posted online with permission from the family, and money raised through the video is being donated to the family.

But here are the key take-away points, from the source presented by Caladan (above): https://www.exploringoverland.com/o.../another-hitch-ball-recovery-another-fatality)

"Don’t use hitch balls for recovery purposes. Any recovery purposes. And don’t use non-kinetic straps for kinetic recoveries. Even if you’re towing someone across a parking lot, a kinetic strap or rope provides an extra measure of safety."
 
Last edited:

klarie

Grenadier Owner
Lifetime Supporter
Local time
6:37 AM
Joined
Aug 23, 2022
Messages
1,032
Reaction score
2,233
Location
Rhine - Main Area / Germany
Winch or not, - The area what we claimed as hunting grounds has forest roads unpaved just gravel here an there and some are just mud, potholes of about one feet depth or alike. Water enough to breed mosquitos and fun for boar to bathe . A fellow of mine got stuck with a Hyundai and was required to call a farmer with a large John Deere tractor. If this is part of a Grenadier Owners life then a winch makes sense.
Grenadier for road use (fun car) like G Wagon - NO.
Grenadier in Forestry, Agricultural, Hunting, Construction Probably.
Grenadier as Trailertowing vehicle - Horses etc. NO.
Grenadier for Greenlaning, Going to countries with low infrastucture such as N, SWE, FI, Iceland in North YES Defintely This is a life saver
Adding a Winch later - may be. Get the electric facility attached.
Most hunters do not have one attached, a friend of mine with hunting area in Rhoen / near Fulda owns a Toyota HiLux (aka Taliban Tank)
Winch on front and rear, truck crane.
Define the attributes you need. I consider adding one but still uncertain, (I would need a winch with lower power at rear more than one in the front, Towing a boar is more likely. and I need it rear side. to pull it in a carry box or on a trailer.. At least I get all electrics to add capability later on.
 

emax

Photo Contest Winner
Grenadier Owner
Lifetime Supporter
Local Group Moderator
Local time
6:37 AM
Joined
Feb 23, 2022
Messages
5,307
Reaction score
8,689
Location
Germany
If you use a snatch block (Umlenkrolle) you can use a winch at will, front or rear. More cable needed however.
 

DCPU

Grenadier Owner
Local time
5:37 AM
Joined
Jul 27, 2022
Messages
6,089
Reaction score
13,474
Even if you’re towing someone across a parking lot, a kinetic strap or rope provides an extra measure of safety."
I'd urge anyone reading that statement to do a little research into the different types of rope available, or perhaps more importantly the different materials used to make them and understand which are good/bad for specific activities.

Yes, a degree of give or elasticity in a tow rope is a good thing; but I'd never want to be towed with a rope designed for kinetic recovery.
 

stickshifter

Reservation Holder
Local time
5:37 AM
Joined
Nov 14, 2021
Messages
1,168
Reaction score
2,383
I'd urge anyone reading that statement to do a little research into the different types of rope available, or perhaps more importantly the different materials used to make them and understand which are good/bad for specific activities.

Yes, a degree of give or elasticity in a tow rope is a good thing; but I'd never want to be towed with a rope designed for kinetic recovery.
Yeah, I agree with you. I copied & pasted their conclusion without much thought. As you say, folks should educate themselves about the three main types of ropes: (1) static ropes, (2) kinetic ropes, and (3) snatch straps (which are even more "dynamic" or stretchy than kinetic ropes). In addition, there is a huge range of hitches, most of which are not suitable for dynamic recovery.
 

globalgregors

Photo Contest Winner
Grenadier Owner
Lifetime Supporter
Local time
4:37 PM
Joined
May 15, 2022
Messages
1,302
Reaction score
3,261
Location
Sydney, Australia
Yeah, I agree with you. I copied & pasted their conclusion without much thought. As you say, folks should educate themselves about the three main types of ropes: (1) static ropes, (2) kinetic ropes, and (3) snatch straps (which are even more "dynamic" or stretchy than kinetic ropes). In addition, there is a huge range of hitches, most of which are not suitable for dynamic recovery.
I remember in the US that the product labelling is a bit variable, with straps sold as ‘tow straps’ ranging from ~5% to ~30% stretch, so I guess it pays to carefully review the specs.

In Oz kinetic ropes and snatch straps both are typically engineered with ~20% stretch to give (is there an Aust Standard on these?). The main difference is durability, in particular abrasion resistance, with snatch straps being somewhat vulnerable to this as well as moisture, dirt and UV damage.

For this reason, a good choice for both towing and recovery is a fully coated kinetic line such as a black snake (https://www.glbvic.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/2018-Black-Snake-Catalogue-Web.pdf) which can stand up to the abuse of towing. These being somewhat bulkier than snatch straps, it is unusual to see them outside of commercial or military users.

If one is faced with the choice of a winch extension rope or snatch strap to tow (the usual options available in the back of the vehicle) I reckon the snatch strap is the better, more mechanically sympathetic, choice. Just know that it’ll likely need to be binned after one decent tow (as opposed to recovery).
 

th_igloo

Grenadier Ordered
Local time
10:37 PM
Joined
Sep 18, 2022
Messages
9
Reaction score
28
Location
California, USA
A winch is a "backup". The car might be on the road 90% of the time but the reason you are buying this car is for the 10% that it's not. And if it gives you "a bit more confidence to master difficult sections", well that's a good thing. It is all part of the fun and adventure. You might only use it on the very rare occasion, for yourself or to help someone else, but when that time comes, you will be glad you have it and not be thinking of the 3671- €.
Just my thoughts.
Well said! My thoughts, exactly! 👍🏼
 

AnD3rew

Inch deep and a mile wide.
Grenadier Owner
Lifetime Supporter
Local time
4:37 PM
Joined
Aug 24, 2022
Messages
2,453
Reaction score
6,043
I use a Greifzug with my Defender. The good thing about it is that you really think it over before you bring your car in a situation where you need it. It is slow slow progress you make, working with it!
But it is somehow satisfying as well to see what you can move with one arm…
My tirfor is quite heavy and needs two aluminium boxes including steel rope and everything I need for it.
This is my problem with the Tirfor, i have one, the whole lot is very heavy, takes up a lot of room in the back of the car, and os slow hard work to recover anything and I am not getting any younger or fitter. If you are 20-40 then get a Tirfor, it is character building, if you are 50+ get the integrated winch we have as much character as we need already 😀
 

DCPU

Grenadier Owner
Local time
5:37 AM
Joined
Jul 27, 2022
Messages
6,089
Reaction score
13,474
This is my problem with the Tirfor, i have one, the whole lot is very heavy,

Each element of mine is smaller, lighter and far easier to manoeuvre than say the spare wheel on/off the back door or a jerrycan into/out of a rack.

In fact as tasks go, I'd rather set up the Tirfor for a pull than rig/de-rig my awning...
 

DaveB

Grenadier Owner
Local time
3:37 PM
Joined
Mar 18, 2022
Messages
6,559
Reaction score
13,348
Location
Toogoom, Fraser Coast Queensland
This is my problem with the Tirfor, i have one, the whole lot is very heavy, takes up a lot of room in the back of the car, and os slow hard work to recover anything and I am not getting any younger or fitter. If you are 20-40 then get a Tirfor, it is character building, if you are 50+ get the integrated winch we have as much character as we need already 😀
I used to sell Tirfors to mine sites in Western Australia for pulling in large steel wire armoured cables. Large, heavy, bulky and then add 30 metres of steel rope to the package. My warehouse guys hated me every time I sold one.
 

DCPU

Grenadier Owner
Local time
5:37 AM
Joined
Jul 27, 2022
Messages
6,089
Reaction score
13,474
I used to sell Tirfors to mine sites in Western Australia for pulling in large steel wire armoured cables. Large, heavy, bulky and then add 30 metres of steel rope to the package. My warehouse guys hated me every time I sold one.
T516 should be more than enough for our needs. Weight wise the machine weighs 13.5kg & 20m of cable 13.1kg. Carried separately or together, it's not a issue.
 

DaveB

Grenadier Owner
Local time
3:37 PM
Joined
Mar 18, 2022
Messages
6,559
Reaction score
13,348
Location
Toogoom, Fraser Coast Queensland
T516 should be more than enough for our needs. Weight wise the machine weighs 13.5kg & 20m of cable 13.1kg. Carried separately or together, it's not a issue.
We mostly sold the T532D which was 24KG but fairly awkward as they didn't come packaged and the long handle was separate. Too heavy for one person to lift. I think the rope was about the same.
 

bemax

Grenadier Owner
Lifetime Supporter
Local time
6:37 AM
Joined
May 12, 2022
Messages
2,388
Reaction score
4,696
Location
Germany
T516 should be more than enough for our needs. Weight wise the machine weighs 13.5kg & 20m of cable 13.1kg. Carried separately or together, it's not an issue.
Plus shackle plus roll
 

DCPU

Grenadier Owner
Local time
5:37 AM
Joined
Jul 27, 2022
Messages
6,089
Reaction score
13,474
Plus shackle plus roll
I've never weighed a shackle, especially a soft one ~ that might say all there needs to be said on that matter.

What do you mean by a roll - maybe something to have a lie down and rest on, halfway to the winch anchor point?
 

DaveB

Grenadier Owner
Local time
3:37 PM
Joined
Mar 18, 2022
Messages
6,559
Reaction score
13,348
Location
Toogoom, Fraser Coast Queensland
I've never weighed a shackle, especially a soft one ~ that might say all there needs to be said on that matter.

What do you mean by a roll - maybe something to have a lie down and rest on, halfway to the winch anchor point?
1663912917991.png
Shackle & Roll of wire rope as supplied with a Tirfor winch. 16mm diameter rope and 10/20/30 metres long curled around the steel cage in a roll.
Apparently Bemax knows what he is talking about and I certainly do.
 

DCPU

Grenadier Owner
Local time
5:37 AM
Joined
Jul 27, 2022
Messages
6,089
Reaction score
13,474
The hook which comes swaged on the wire rope in your photo is not a shackle.

Weights given above include the roll of wire rope, otherwise called cable.

The actual wire rope support/reel shown in your photo is pretty much useless in the field and only really good for initial shipping. Most users soon find a better way to transport, such as an old tyre.Tirfor - Cpqi_z8WYAA1eh4.jpegTirfor - D3ej2mHWAAAeYh8.jpegTirfor - D5B8T0aX4AE5fai.jpeg
 
Last edited:

DaveB

Grenadier Owner
Local time
3:37 PM
Joined
Mar 18, 2022
Messages
6,559
Reaction score
13,348
Location
Toogoom, Fraser Coast Queensland
The hook which comes swaged on the wire rope in your photo is not a shackle.

Weights given above include the roll of wire rope, otherwise called cable.

The actual wire rope support/reel shown in your photo is pretty much useless in the field and only really good for initial shipping. Most users soon find a better way to transport, such as an old tyre.
Not interested in discussing it further.
Have a good day
 

DCPU

Grenadier Owner
Local time
5:37 AM
Joined
Jul 27, 2022
Messages
6,089
Reaction score
13,474
You too.

Oh and if that's your kit in the photo, I'd double check the gated/safety catch on the hook - it's not fully clear from the photo, but it looks like it has been forced outside the hook throat.

1663912917991.png
 
Local time
1:37 AM
Joined
Dec 27, 2021
Messages
46
Reaction score
25
I think you can let someone make you a holder mounted to towing eyes (of course two positions front and back. Eyes are different, I think) like below.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_20220923_093925.jpg
    IMG_20220923_093925.jpg
    147.1 KB · Views: 30
Back
Top Bottom