The Grenadier Forum
Register Now for enhanced site access.
INEOS Agents, Dealers or Commercial vendors please contact admin@theineosforum.com for a commercial account.

Winch or not ?

Deepblue

#00274 - Swiss Vehicle (SD1-1/63)
Grenadier Owner
Lifetime Supporter
Local time
2:00 AM
Joined
Mar 17, 2022
Messages
194
Reaction score
639
Location
Switzerland
Hi @emax
am in the very same situation: don’t ‘need’ a winch as much as I don’t ‘need’ a Grenadier. But I ‘want’ both…
Have considered the removable winch. Problem I see is in Europe incl Switzerland we probably don’t get any front towing hitch or front winch mounting. Think security reasons don’t allow. Maybe some diy is possible but not sure how to hide behind the bumper.
Have decided to stick to the integrated winch for time being and wait for more detailed spec. Guess I could easier untick such option for contract then add.
From what I read IA factory red winch has a smaller spool because of space with only 15m rope. and mounting incl bumper is specific so maybe not cheaper aftermarket.
Looking forward to get more insights and the forum is great.
 

DCPU

Grenadier Owner
Local time
1:00 AM
Joined
Jul 27, 2022
Messages
6,089
Reaction score
13,474
Thank you, you have all brought very plausible arguments.

In fact, I don't feel particularly comfortable with the ~ 50kg additional weight, which is mainly just being driven around. And bemax' arguments regarding consumption / efficiency are hard facts.

DCPU's hint was a enlightenment and will probably become my solution. It's not about showing off a winch for me, but really about a 'backup'. And a Tirfor (in German "Greifzug", I had to look it up) seems to be a really viable solution. This is used by firefighters as well as the military, so it should be a solid solution. With certain limits, but that's the price. And it's of course true that a winch needs attention.

In return, 3670 euros is a decent saving, for which I can not only buy a good Tirfor and a reasonable set of recovery gear but have as well still enough left to completely fuel up my Grenadier 15 or 20 Times. 😇

Yes, the forum gathers a great deal of knowledge and experience. Thank you all! (y)
The hand winch you appear to have selected is enormous. I assume it was just to illustrate the type rather than the model?
 
Last edited:

DCPU

Grenadier Owner
Local time
1:00 AM
Joined
Jul 27, 2022
Messages
6,089
Reaction score
13,474
I use a Greifzug with my Defender. The good thing about it is that you really think it over before you bring your car in a situation where you need it. It is slow slow progress you make, working with it!
But it is somehow satisfying as well to see what you can move with one arm…
My tirfor is quite heavy and needs two aluminium boxes including steel rope and everything I need for it.
Have you got some photos of that setup?👍
 

emax

Photo Contest Winner
Grenadier Owner
Lifetime Supporter
Local Group Moderator
Local time
2:00 AM
Joined
Feb 23, 2022
Messages
5,307
Reaction score
8,689
Location
Germany
The hand winch you appear to have selected is enormous. I assume it was just to illustrate the type rather than the model?
You're right, it's a monster.

But I simply (as naive in this topic) chose one with about the same pulling power as the integrated winch. I've since learned that a 1.6 ton Tirfor with a pulley would probably be good enough.

Also, you probably don't need 20m of steel cable. What you need is a cable with approximately the net towing length normally required. You can extend this to the car with a plastic cable. Saves a few kg too.
 

DCPU

Grenadier Owner
Local time
1:00 AM
Joined
Jul 27, 2022
Messages
6,089
Reaction score
13,474
Another thing is weight. A good Tirfor (say 3200Kg) and a cable quickly sums up 50 or 65 Kg, depending on the brand and the length of the cable. The cable has to be made of steel due to the functioning principle of the Tirfor, so it is quite heavy. A short steel-cable would however work if you extend it with a plastic rope and only use the steel part for winching. This saves some kilograms.

Maybe it's better to transport 65 Kg for 10% of the time than 45 Kg for 100% of the time. But you have to secure this load whilst driving, it can become a dangerous missile.

There was another idea: The removable winch. Works front and aft. Does anybody know what it weighs?
Don't forget you're looking at lifting loads with a Tirfor spec.

A T516 should be more than enough. Weight wise the machine weighs 13.5kg & 20m of cable 13.1kg. Carried separately or together, it's not a issue.
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot_20220807_093735_com.android.chrome.jpg
    Screenshot_20220807_093735_com.android.chrome.jpg
    720.3 KB · Views: 11
Last edited:

emax

Photo Contest Winner
Grenadier Owner
Lifetime Supporter
Local Group Moderator
Local time
2:00 AM
Joined
Feb 23, 2022
Messages
5,307
Reaction score
8,689
Location
Germany

DCPU

Grenadier Owner
Local time
1:00 AM
Joined
Jul 27, 2022
Messages
6,089
Reaction score
13,474
No, sorry. But here is the bundle in a shop:
Thanks.

UK suppliers don't seen to bundle in this manner.

I like the edge separator, but it doesn't seem to be available separately?
 

DCPU

Grenadier Owner
Local time
1:00 AM
Joined
Jul 27, 2022
Messages
6,089
Reaction score
13,474
Also, you probably don't need 20m of steel cable. What you need is a cable with approximately the net towing length normally required. You can extend this to the car with a plastic cable. Saves a few kg too.
I would not go for less than 20m, ideally 25m.

Things are never as close as you think when wanting to extract yourself safely; and to single rig, rather than double rig is the name of the game.

If you have a 22m pull, a 15m winch wire and a 40m synthetic rope, how are you going to shorten the synthetic rope?
 

globalgregors

Photo Contest Winner
Grenadier Owner
Lifetime Supporter
Local time
12:00 PM
Joined
May 15, 2022
Messages
1,302
Reaction score
3,259
Location
Sydney, Australia
It might be worth noting for members in parts of the world where winch recoveries are rare… a winch need not be matched to the weight of the vehicle, a smaller winch is sufficient for most recoveries as long as sufficient snatch blocks/additional line are included to reduce the load.

What is typically traded away is the distance over which one can winch, not necessarily how much can be pulled. Similarly, additional static straps in your recovery kit may be necessary to effectively reduce the distance between the winching arrangement and the anchoring point. Lengthy recoveries may also take longer as a shorter setup needs to be repeatedly reset.

This above setup typically gives you the option to then employ your front-mounted winch to recover your own vehicle to the rear, and also permits a longer standoff distance when recovering another vehicle, such as from fesh fesh, a salt lake bed, river crossing, approaching tide or similar.

The opposite is also true, eg a winch setup rated to the weight of the vehicle is not going to save one from a lot of digging if one has sunk the vehicle to it’s floorpan... which is where a hilift jack might pay for itself.
 
Last edited:

DCPU

Grenadier Owner
Local time
1:00 AM
Joined
Jul 27, 2022
Messages
6,089
Reaction score
13,474
The original question was whether to order the vehicle with a winch, or perhaps fit one later. The fact that ordering one from the factory includes the fitment of appropriately rated springs avoids one of the challenges of fitting one later.
Totally agree with that, but what you said initially, and what I was questioning, was:

"4. I understand that part of the cost is due to upgraded front springs when the winch is ordered."
 

DCPU

Grenadier Owner
Local time
1:00 AM
Joined
Jul 27, 2022
Messages
6,089
Reaction score
13,474
the fitting by the factory is a no brainer especially with the ctek unit. Also it's protected inside the front bumper and gets higher rated springs.
For the winch option (£3,185) we've been told (Justin Hocevar) you need the High Load Auxiliary Switch Panel and Electrical Preparation (£1,060); if you now want the CTEK unit (a Smartpass 120S) that comes with the Auxiliary Battery then that's an additional £570.

The Smartpass 120S without the CTEK 250SE DC-DC charger seems not to be doing the job you'd want when running a winch?

It also needs clarification on where the winch will draw power from when an auxiliary battery is fitted. The starter battery ~ as that's where it must come from if you don't option the auxiliary battery.

It's also worth noting what Red Winches say about batteries when powering their winches:

"We recommend a good 12v alternator (180A as a minimum) charging the winch batteries. Two batteries of a minimum of 75Ah capacity each, giving you the 12v DC supply you need. At least 50mm² high quality, high load electrical cable, 70mm² is recommended. Clean electrical joints and if in areas prone to water joints should have conductive grease applied."

"We always test with two 85Ah batteries as a minimum, giving a 12V DC supply."

 

Sandman

Grenadier Owner
Local time
12:00 PM
Joined
May 16, 2022
Messages
38
Reaction score
25
It also needs clarification on where the winch will draw power from when an auxiliary battery is fitted. The starter battery ~ as that's where it must come from if you don't option the auxiliary battery.
We know the alternator can pump out 250 amp, which will provide most of the power needed. The main battery, and if you have an aux battery, are both 105ah each.
 

emax

Photo Contest Winner
Grenadier Owner
Lifetime Supporter
Local Group Moderator
Local time
2:00 AM
Joined
Feb 23, 2022
Messages
5,307
Reaction score
8,689
Location
Germany
I have ordered the second battery plus the High Load Auxiliary Switch Panel.

I wonder if Ineos really sells a winch which wouldn't be functional without additional equipment - without implementing this in the configurator as a mandatory upgrade?
 

DCPU

Grenadier Owner
Local time
1:00 AM
Joined
Jul 27, 2022
Messages
6,089
Reaction score
13,474
I wonder if Ineos really sells a winch which wouldn't be functional without additional equipment - without implementing this in the configurator as a mandatory upgrade?
There's a big difference between the vehicle engineering team and the website developers... but yes, that's exactly what has happened.
 

Disco Dave

Grenadier Owner
Local time
11:00 AM
Joined
Feb 22, 2022
Messages
244
Reaction score
481
Location
Cairns, Australia
I still own a tirfor, with 20m of steel
cable. After a few trips, it became a huge 25kg pain in the butt. So I fitted an electric winch, which is always there. Never used the tirfor for extraction, luckily enough. If the red winch only has 15m of synthetic rope, well that is what an extension strap is for - always have one of those on board, they don’t weigh much.
Batteries run winches, alternators charge batteries. Stop overthinking it. A winch is not going to drain your battery, unless you are in deep shit. So you may have to give everything a rest for 15 min for the batteries to recoup.
An electric winch (coupled with extraction kit) is bloody good insurance. However, a tirfor is better than nothing.
 

DCPU

Grenadier Owner
Local time
1:00 AM
Joined
Jul 27, 2022
Messages
6,089
Reaction score
13,474
Don't overthink it... isn't that how accidents happen?

What length is your extension strap(?) and how do you choke it down for pulls less than it's deployed length but greater than a 15m winch cable?

Having said that, I do have a Warm M8000 on a different vehicle. It runs off the starter battery (Optima Red Top, 50Ah, 815 CCA), no 2nd battery fitted. Works a treat, but it's not as good as my Tirfor. 😝
 
Last edited:

Disco Dave

Grenadier Owner
Local time
11:00 AM
Joined
Feb 22, 2022
Messages
244
Reaction score
481
Location
Cairns, Australia
Don't overthink it... isn't that how accidents happen?

What length is your extension strap(?) and how do you choke it down for pulls less than it's deployed length but greater than a 15m winch cable?
Overthinking is what some people do on forums. They “what if“ everything to death, won’t be happy till everyone is running 3 batteries and an 8t winch with a 30m rope.

My extension strap is 20m, managing it (or even 2) is not rocket science. If you cannot work this basic stuff out on the track, better take somebody with you that can.
 
Back
Top Bottom