Winch or not ?

emax

Prolific Contributor
Grenadier Ordered
I am currently struggling whether to add a winch or not.

I do not really 'need' a winch. But it gives me a bit more confidence to master difficult sections. If I will once travel through Sardinia, the Pyrenees or the like, it would feel like kind of a backup.

On the other hand, I will likely drive the Grenadier on the road for at least 90%.

Ineos offers a 5.5 tonnes winch, the price is 3671,- € - which is a lot.

I ask my self, whether I could fit a winch of that categorie for that price later, including installation, wiring etc. (already have the power panel).

What do you think? What are the prices for something equally good and powerful?
 
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emax

Prolific Contributor
Grenadier Ordered
Opinions is what I wanted. :)

You are of course right, I do actually not need a winch. However, I don't really 'need' the entire Grenadier, to be honest. And I agree that this is a luxury. On the other hand, even a 50% off road use will likely 'need' a winch very seldomly. They are just for the bad moments which no one wants to experience.

If fitting a winch of the same quality and power is feasable for about that price or less, it's a nobrainer: I would not order one now.

At least for that reason my question still remains.
 

USandPR

Contributor
Grenadier Ordered
Sooo I would always fill my Tahoe with things "I" might need but usually it was used for others in need. Jumper cables and tow straps/winch are nice things to have to help others. If you only use that winch to help one person, you will feel like it was worth it. Call me crazy...
 

Michael H.

Contributor
Grenadier Ordered
I’ve never had a winch on any of my 4WDs, but I decided to order one on my Trialmaster for a few reasons …

1. I've been in a few situations where we’ve been very lucky that a vehicle in our group had a winch.
2. I like the idea that the available winch is fully integrated into the vehicle.
3. I like the idea that the winch will be covered by the full 5-year vehicle warranty (here in Australia).
4. I understand that part of the cost is due to upgraded front springs when the winch is ordered.
 

globalgregors

Contributor
Grenadier Ordered
@USandPR correct… most recovery equipment seems most often used to rescue others. @emax had you considered the demountable winch option? That might live in your garage for the 90% but find a place in the back when you’re headed out bush, and has the added benefit of front or rear fitment… otherwise for occasional needs better options are a hand winch or using a high-lift jack. Not sure about the EU but in OZ aftermarket alternatives would be available cheaper but may not be an equally tidy installation, and may require suspension mods to accomodate a heavier package.
 
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MileHigh

Contributor
Grenadier Ordered
What Peaked my interest is that it seems like a pretty well integrated installation of the winch, and not some add on tacked onto the front. The Springs are an interesting addition that I’d like to know more about.

If you get into a literal fender-bender, I assume that the winch is easily damaged? Higher insurance?
 

Sandman

Contributor
Grenadier Ordered
A winch is a "backup". The car might be on the road 90% of the time but the reason you are buying this car is for the 10% that it's not. And if it gives you "a bit more confidence to master difficult sections", well that's a good thing. It is all part of the fun and adventure. You might only use it on the very rare occasion, for yourself or to help someone else, but when that time comes, you will be glad you have it and not be thinking of the 3671- €.
Just my thoughts.
 

DCPU

Active Contributor
Grenadier Ordered
4. I understand that part of the cost is due to upgraded front springs when the winch is ordered.
I wouldn't call the springs upgraded, in the tradional sense of that word, but rather just a different spring rate.

As such I'd not expect there to be a significant, if any, price difference to the other rated springs; and if of course if they're fitted on the production line there's no cost impact there either.
 
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bemax

Contributor
Grenadier Ordered
In my opinion the integrated winch is not a “must have” for your reasons. I wouldn’t try to make the car more inefficient as it already is. If you feel like you might need a winch sometime, you might go for an portable option than. The extra weight in front of the front axle gives quite a lot of extra stress for all components.
 

DCPU

Active Contributor
Grenadier Ordered
A winch is a "backup". The car might be on the road 90% of the time but the reason you are buying this car is for the 10% that it's not.
The problem with this scenario is a winch fitted to the front of a vehicle, maybe more so an integrated one, gets all the worst of the dust, snow, rain, mud, etc.

Winches work best when used regularly, and even better when maintained after each outing. It's not a fit and forget piece of equipment.

I need more than the fingers on one hand to count the number of times I've been out with people when we've needed a winch and their's is volunteered only to find one of a number of issues:

freespool is jammed
winch won't pay out
remote control does not operate
winch makes funny noises
winch does nothing

All of these issues means relying on such a piece of equipment for what may be a difficult/dangerous/safety critical task is sub optimal.

It may not be a sexy choice, but in your circumstances, which mirror mine to a degree, the solution is a Tirfor.
 

DCPU

Active Contributor
Grenadier Ordered
If you get into a literal fender-bender, I assume that the winch is easily damaged? Higher insurance?
I wonder how it may limit insurance options, which in itself usually makes premiums higher?
 

emax

Prolific Contributor
Grenadier Ordered
Thank you, you have all brought very plausible arguments.

In fact, I don't feel particularly comfortable with the ~ 50kg additional weight, which is mainly just being driven around. And bemax' arguments regarding consumption / efficiency are hard facts.

DCPU's hint was a enlightenment and will probably become my solution. It's not about showing off a winch for me, but really about a 'backup'. And a Tirfor (in German "Greifzug", I had to look it up) seems to be a really viable solution. This is used by firefighters as well as the military, so it should be a solid solution. With certain limits, but that's the price. And it's of course true that a winch needs attention.

In return, 3670 euros is a decent saving, for which I can not only buy a good Tirfor and a reasonable set of recovery gear but have as well still enough left to completely fuel up my Grenadier 15 or 20 Times. 😇

Yes, the forum gathers a great deal of knowledge and experience. Thank you all! (y)
 

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bemax

Contributor
Grenadier Ordered
Thank you, you have all brought very plausible arguments.

In fact, I don't feel particularly comfortable with the ~ 50kg additional weight, which is mainly just being driven around. And bemax' arguments regarding consumption / efficiency are hard facts.

DCPU's hint was a enlightenment and will probably become my solution. It's not about showing off a winch for me, but really about a 'backup'. And a Tirfor (in German "Greifzug", I had to look it up) seems to be a really viable solution. This is used by firefighters as well as the military, so it should be a solid solution. With certain limits, but that's the price. And it's of course true that a winch needs attention.

In return, 3670 euros is a decent saving, for which I can not only buy a good Tirfor and a reasonable set of recovery gear but have as well still enough left to completely fuel up my Grenadier 15 or 20 Times. 😇

Yes, the forum gathers a great deal of knowledge and experience. Thank you all! (y)
I use a Greifzug with my Defender. The good thing about it is that you really think it over before you bring your car in a situation where you need it. It is slow slow progress you make, working with it!
But it is somehow satisfying as well to see what you can move with one arm…
My tirfor is quite heavy and needs two aluminium boxes including steel rope and everything I need for it.
 

rovie

Contributor
A winch could be very helpful pulling a boar out of the forest. Once again, city people and busybodies don't really need a winch.
 

emax

Prolific Contributor
Grenadier Ordered
I have now watched some youtube videos showing how to operate a Tirfor or a Hilift Jack. Oh my god.

In an emergency situation, lost in nowhere, this is really an option. But itakes time. As far as I have seen, you can usually forget about the afternoon and you really have to be fit. Ok, why not.

Another thing is weight. A good Tirfor (say 3200Kg) and a cable quickly sums up 50 or 65 Kg, depending on the brand and the length of the cable. The cable has to be made of steel due to the functioning principle of the Tirfor, so it is quite heavy. A short steel-cable would however work if you extend it with a plastic rope and only use the steel part for winching. This saves some kilograms.

Maybe it's better to transport 65 Kg for 10% of the time than 45 Kg for 100% of the time. But you have to secure this load whilst driving, it can become a dangerous missile.

There was another idea: The removable winch. Works front and aft. Does anybody know what it weighs?
 

bemax

Contributor
Grenadier Ordered
I have now watched some youtube videos showing how to operate a Tirfor or a Hilift Jack. Oh my god.

In an emergency situation, lost in nowhere, this is really an option. But itakes time. As far as I have seen, you can usually forget about the afternoon and you really have to be fit. Ok, why not.

Another thing is weight. A good Tirfor (say 3200Kg) and a cable quickly sums up 50 or 65 Kg, depending on the brand and the length of the cable. The cable has to be made of steel due to the functioning principle of the Tirfor, so it is quite heavy. A short steel-cable would however work if you extend it with a plastic rope and only use the steel part for winching. This saves some kilograms.

Maybe it's better to transport 65 Kg for 10% of the time than 45 Kg for 100% of the time. But you have to secure this load whilst driving, it can become a dangerous missile.

There was another idea: The removable winch. Works front and aft. Does anybody know what it weighs?
Or a spill winch
 

CountyV8

Contributor
Well MAX

After having driven a series of winch equipped Defenders for the last 30 years all I can say is you only need a winch when
"you need a winch" self recovery or recovering others felling trees tree stumps the list is endless. The quality of Red are very high aerospace quality and the fitting by the factory is a no brainer especially with the ctek unit. Also it's protected inside the front bumper and gets higher rated springs.
 

globalgregors

Contributor
Grenadier Ordered
Not sure about the weight of the Red removable winch but a ‘removable’ winch is normally just a regular winch fitted to a multi-mount kit, with appropriate plug’n’play wiring prep on the vehicle. So it’s pretty much whatever winch you want. This appears to be the case also with the Ineos option, which looks to be a lower rated winch mounted in a steel sling.

Remember that you’d almost always use a hand winch in combination with a snatch block giving a 2:1 mechanical advantage, so typically a ~1.6 tonne winch {12-13kg plus same in cable) is plenty for a light vehicle. Not that a light vehicle feels such when it’s sunk to it’s axles and all you have is a hand winch. :)

If you go down this route you‘ll also want a synthetic line… run the synthetic line through the snatch block(s) and do your straight pull via the steel cable.

Final thing, it’s also notable that if you’re in the middle of nowhere hand winches can be used for various lifting and pulling tasks outside the realm of vehicle-mounted... side ways pull if your vehicle is resting on it’s side in a washout; righting a rolled vehicle; doing bush panel repairs; hoisting an engine/transmission* etc etc.

* not recommended of course, but when you’ve gotta do what you’ve gotta do…
 
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