Winch or not ?

stickshifter

Contributor
Grenadier Ordered
Those were the days! Flying steel shackles have been the cause of fatalities and numerous injuries. Nowadays the use of soft shackles only is widely promoted and indeed is a requirement of an increasing number of pay-and-play centres and off-road clubs in the UK. It's good to see the Grenadier has recovery points suitably rounded for using soft shackles.
Yeah, on July 26, 2022, a man named Ryan Woods was killed in Arizona by a flying shackle. He was in the driver's seat of his Ford Super Duty, and the vehicle was stuck in mud. His buddy tried to yank him out using a tow-hitch not specced for this purpose, and I also think they were using chains and other static line. I don't remember all the details, but it was horrible. His wife was seated next to him, and his son was in the back seat. Part of the broken steel hitch came hurtling through the windshield, bent the steering wheel, and then hit him in the face, killing him instantly. Its a terrible story, and the mistakes made will haunt the poor man's family, and his best friend - probably for the rest of their lives. His family is encouraging people to learn about the event in order to avoid making the same mistakes. Here is a video in which a guy who is very active in 4x4 recovery here in Colorado, breaks down the mistakes made:

 

emax

Prolific Contributor
Grenadier Ordered
Though the video might be just analytic, I have to say that I have no drive to watch it.

Poor wife and son and friend as well. So terrible.
 

stickshifter

Contributor
Grenadier Ordered
Though the video might be just analytic, I have to say that I have no drive to watch it.

Poor wife and son and friend as well. So terrible.
I understand not wanting to watch the video. The whole thing is just so... horrible. But in case you were wondering, it is not graphic (i.e. no images of the deceased), the video is posted online with permission from the family, and money raised through the video is being donated to the family.

But here are the key take-away points, from the source presented by Caladan (above): https://www.exploringoverland.com/o.../another-hitch-ball-recovery-another-fatality)

"Don’t use hitch balls for recovery purposes. Any recovery purposes. And don’t use non-kinetic straps for kinetic recoveries. Even if you’re towing someone across a parking lot, a kinetic strap or rope provides an extra measure of safety."
 
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klarie

Contributor
Winch or not, - The area what we claimed as hunting grounds has forest roads unpaved just gravel here an there and some are just mud, potholes of about one feet depth or alike. Water enough to breed mosquitos and fun for boar to bathe . A fellow of mine got stuck with a Hyundai and was required to call a farmer with a large John Deere tractor. If this is part of a Grenadier Owners life then a winch makes sense.
Grenadier for road use (fun car) like G Wagon - NO.
Grenadier in Forestry, Agricultural, Hunting, Construction Probably.
Grenadier as Trailertowing vehicle - Horses etc. NO.
Grenadier for Greenlaning, Going to countries with low infrastucture such as N, SWE, FI, Iceland in North YES Defintely This is a life saver
Adding a Winch later - may be. Get the electric facility attached.
Most hunters do not have one attached, a friend of mine with hunting area in Rhoen / near Fulda owns a Toyota HiLux (aka Taliban Tank)
Winch on front and rear, truck crane.
Define the attributes you need. I consider adding one but still uncertain, (I would need a winch with lower power at rear more than one in the front, Towing a boar is more likely. and I need it rear side. to pull it in a carry box or on a trailer.. At least I get all electrics to add capability later on.
 

emax

Prolific Contributor
Grenadier Ordered
If you use a snatch block (Umlenkrolle) you can use a winch at will, front or rear. More cable needed however.
 

DCPU

Active Contributor
Grenadier Ordered
Even if you’re towing someone across a parking lot, a kinetic strap or rope provides an extra measure of safety."
I'd urge anyone reading that statement to do a little research into the different types of rope available, or perhaps more importantly the different materials used to make them and understand which are good/bad for specific activities.

Yes, a degree of give or elasticity in a tow rope is a good thing; but I'd never want to be towed with a rope designed for kinetic recovery.
 

stickshifter

Contributor
Grenadier Ordered
I'd urge anyone reading that statement to do a little research into the different types of rope available, or perhaps more importantly the different materials used to make them and understand which are good/bad for specific activities.

Yes, a degree of give or elasticity in a tow rope is a good thing; but I'd never want to be towed with a rope designed for kinetic recovery.
Yeah, I agree with you. I copied & pasted their conclusion without much thought. As you say, folks should educate themselves about the three main types of ropes: (1) static ropes, (2) kinetic ropes, and (3) snatch straps (which are even more "dynamic" or stretchy than kinetic ropes). In addition, there is a huge range of hitches, most of which are not suitable for dynamic recovery.
 

painter

Contributor
Grenadier Ordered
...IMHO a winch is an essential item if your doing any solo travelling off-road. even if your not doing technical trails, there are so many potential situations that can crop up where you'll need one. Moving trees, self recovery, helping locals are all things I've done in the past, and you never know when its going to happen
winches are so much more controlled than snatch traps.

maybe 'essential' is a bit strong, but I've got into a good few situations where a winch saved me.

Really depends on where your going, but for those who like to do some "interesting" tracks when away, id say its a no brainer
Agree. I'd include "travelling solo" and "where and when you are going" to to the list when deciding on whether to buy a winch.

"where you are going" includes if you get stuck and need help, how long might you wait for help to come by. Hours, days ? If you have to walk out for help can you leave you vehicle unattended (vandalism, theft of contents) ?

"when" includes the weather and season. Once we got stuck - turning around - high up a quiet mountain road, mid week, late Autumn, getting dark, snow starting to fall. I felt it was get out now ... or next year. The winch made it fast and easy.

A winch may also be able to move a disabled vehicle out of harms way. Ever come across an abandoned vehicle, broke down vehicle in the middle of the road ?

Long ago we got stuck crossing an old single lane logging bridge when a wheel broke through the bridge deck. I wanted off that bridge as fast as possible !

Funny thing, while working on the recovery a guy squeezed by the truck pushing his mountain bike along the curb log. I was standing right there, and he said nothing, just head down, walk on by. Probably thought I was an idiot and deserved my fate ... which I kinda did, but not my passenger, who later married me despite my idiocy 😊. Anyway, he was the only person we saw that afternoon.

Like my father used to say, "at the end of the day, you're on your tod (own)"

Travelling alone, a winch is another tool to have along. Not the only one, but a good one.
 
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globalgregors

Contributor
Grenadier Ordered
Yeah, I agree with you. I copied & pasted their conclusion without much thought. As you say, folks should educate themselves about the three main types of ropes: (1) static ropes, (2) kinetic ropes, and (3) snatch straps (which are even more "dynamic" or stretchy than kinetic ropes). In addition, there is a huge range of hitches, most of which are not suitable for dynamic recovery.
I remember in the US that the product labelling is a bit variable, with straps sold as ‘tow straps’ ranging from ~5% to ~30% stretch, so I guess it pays to carefully review the specs.

In Oz kinetic ropes and snatch straps both are typically engineered with ~20% stretch to give (is there an Aust Standard on these?). The main difference is durability, in particular abrasion resistance, with snatch straps being somewhat vulnerable to this as well as moisture, dirt and UV damage.

For this reason, a good choice for both towing and recovery is a fully coated kinetic line such as a black snake (https://www.glbvic.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/2018-Black-Snake-Catalogue-Web.pdf) which can stand up to the abuse of towing. These being somewhat bulkier than snatch straps, it is unusual to see them outside of commercial or military users.

If one is faced with the choice of a winch extension rope or snatch strap to tow (the usual options available in the back of the vehicle) I reckon the snatch strap is the better, more mechanically sympathetic, choice. Just know that it’ll likely need to be binned after one decent tow (as opposed to recovery).
 

th_igloo

First Posts
Grenadier Ordered
A winch is a "backup". The car might be on the road 90% of the time but the reason you are buying this car is for the 10% that it's not. And if it gives you "a bit more confidence to master difficult sections", well that's a good thing. It is all part of the fun and adventure. You might only use it on the very rare occasion, for yourself or to help someone else, but when that time comes, you will be glad you have it and not be thinking of the 3671- €.
Just my thoughts.
Well said! My thoughts, exactly! 👍🏼
 

AnD3rew

Contributor
I use a Greifzug with my Defender. The good thing about it is that you really think it over before you bring your car in a situation where you need it. It is slow slow progress you make, working with it!
But it is somehow satisfying as well to see what you can move with one arm…
My tirfor is quite heavy and needs two aluminium boxes including steel rope and everything I need for it.
This is my problem with the Tirfor, i have one, the whole lot is very heavy, takes up a lot of room in the back of the car, and os slow hard work to recover anything and I am not getting any younger or fitter. If you are 20-40 then get a Tirfor, it is character building, if you are 50+ get the integrated winch we have as much character as we need already 😀
 

DCPU

Active Contributor
Grenadier Ordered
This is my problem with the Tirfor, i have one, the whole lot is very heavy,

Each element of mine is smaller, lighter and far easier to manoeuvre than say the spare wheel on/off the back door or a jerrycan into/out of a rack.

In fact as tasks go, I'd rather set up the Tirfor for a pull than rig/de-rig my awning...
 

DaveB

Prolific Contributor
Grenadier Ordered
This is my problem with the Tirfor, i have one, the whole lot is very heavy, takes up a lot of room in the back of the car, and os slow hard work to recover anything and I am not getting any younger or fitter. If you are 20-40 then get a Tirfor, it is character building, if you are 50+ get the integrated winch we have as much character as we need already 😀
I used to sell Tirfors to mine sites in Western Australia for pulling in large steel wire armoured cables. Large, heavy, bulky and then add 30 metres of steel rope to the package. My warehouse guys hated me every time I sold one.
 

DCPU

Active Contributor
Grenadier Ordered
I used to sell Tirfors to mine sites in Western Australia for pulling in large steel wire armoured cables. Large, heavy, bulky and then add 30 metres of steel rope to the package. My warehouse guys hated me every time I sold one.
T516 should be more than enough for our needs. Weight wise the machine weighs 13.5kg & 20m of cable 13.1kg. Carried separately or together, it's not a issue.
 

DaveB

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Grenadier Ordered
T516 should be more than enough for our needs. Weight wise the machine weighs 13.5kg & 20m of cable 13.1kg. Carried separately or together, it's not a issue.
We mostly sold the T532D which was 24KG but fairly awkward as they didn't come packaged and the long handle was separate. Too heavy for one person to lift. I think the rope was about the same.
 

DCPU

Active Contributor
Grenadier Ordered
Plus shackle plus roll
I've never weighed a shackle, especially a soft one ~ that might say all there needs to be said on that matter.

What do you mean by a roll - maybe something to have a lie down and rest on, halfway to the winch anchor point?
 

DaveB

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Grenadier Ordered
I've never weighed a shackle, especially a soft one ~ that might say all there needs to be said on that matter.

What do you mean by a roll - maybe something to have a lie down and rest on, halfway to the winch anchor point?
1663912917991.png
Shackle & Roll of wire rope as supplied with a Tirfor winch. 16mm diameter rope and 10/20/30 metres long curled around the steel cage in a roll.
Apparently Bemax knows what he is talking about and I certainly do.
 
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