Stuck at Cape York

[Braydo]

Regarding communication from INEOS which seems to have upset a number of people, there are reasons why manufacturers often don’t give a detailed post-mortem after a major failure like this one — even when the insurer has already accepted the claim. It’s not always about hiding anything. A big part of it is simply that once complex part like an engine lets go catastrophically, there usually isn’t enough hard evidence left to say exactly which internal part failed first or what the precise chain of events was. If they can’t prove it 100%, they won’t go on the record with it.

There’s also a customer-protection angle people don’t often consider. If a manufacturer states a specific cause — for example, “the driver over-waded and ingested water” — that can easily turn into the owner being blamed, disputes with insurers, or arguments about improper use. By keeping it broad (“environmental factors”), they avoid making accusations or locking the owner into a position they then have to defend.

It basically prevents everyone from ending up in a technical or legal tug-of-war. The claim gets paid, the owner gets their car repaired, and no one has to argue over an engine that’s too damaged to diagnose with certainty.

So while the lack of detail feels frustrating, sometimes that silence is the thing that quietly keeps the process smooth for the customer, even when they might not realise this during a period of heightened emotion.

 

[Karearea]

I like your thinking here, perhaps those concerned should have thought in more detail before posting that recent video

 

[NQ94]

A "new old stock" engine is not desirable!
All the rubber bits age too.

If the buyer knows what they're in for NOS is great value. Working in the tropics and we regularly get to see new or rebuilt parts from storage needing rework.

 

[Braydo]

I like your thinking here, perhaps those concerned should have thought in more detail before posting that recent video

Exactly. Publishing this video is actually not in the customer’s best interests. If they force INEOS’s hand to explain their diagnosis of the cause, they risk placing the owner in the position that they have to defend their actions to the insurer, who might then deny their claim. Vagueness and uncertainty protects the customer here. Unfortunately in a state of heightened emotion, he doesn’t realise that. None of this publicity actually helps - INEOS are copping flack and potential financial loss (through lost sales) by protecting their customer. I hope they actually do remain silent here, despite their own loss, even though their customer doesn’t know how to look after himself.

 

[MattA]

Ineos not disclosing the fault to the owner is bazar and disgraceful at best
More likely secretive, dishonest , deceptive and dismissive of customers rights to know what has happened to their car
Just my opinion and as stated earlier I would be filthy and demanding an detailed report and explanation

 

[acky]

Ineos not disclosing the fault to the owner is bazar and disgraceful at best
More likely secretive, dishonest , deceptive and dismissive of customers rights to know what has happened to their car
Just my opinion and as stated earlier I would be filthy and demanding an detailed report and explanation

Its just not !
as Braydo said, it would be hard to see why an engine let go with certainty, especially if its catastrophic!
they probably saw a cracked block (or even just a oil leak), then saw the evidence of water in the intake and thats the "Environmental Damage" out.

any manufacturer will stop diagnosing once they see evidence of water in the intake

I drowned My old Amarok's headlights in the High Country, took it in to dealer to see if i could wrangle a not fit for purpose claim
they saw water evidence in the intake (full sealed Safari snorkel) and that was the end of that claim!

 

[Clark Kent]

Fosters???

It's a long running joke. That lil be-atch @Krabby thinks he's got into our heads over it but I for one am not biting. No sir.

 

[bigleonski]

I used to have a Defender but this engine failure at 20,000 with no acceptance of warranty by Ineos has really put me off buying one and I can tell you that I was determined to buy one soon. I doubt it was hydrolock, they were 20 minutes into a fresh drive. Loss of oil followed by a seizure is more like it. If Ineos know what caused the failure they should be saying. If the guy making the video says they haven’t been told I will guarantee they haven’t been told. This lack of warranty and secrecy about cause of failure has me feeling sick that that could happen to me if I bought one.

First post - welcome to the forum. Shame you’re leaving so early.
Insurance are covering it, you should have watched the whole thing. It “may” be assumed it wasn’t a vehicle fault or warranty issue then??

EDITED ABOVE TO CLARIFY INEOS DIDN’T PAY.

Ring up Toyota or VW or Ford and ask if they’d have been so helpful in the same circumstances. I think you might end up putting a deposit down on a grenny after those calls.

 

[bigleonski]

I reckon JC launched the video to just get content out there, and launched way to early before anyone has the facts.
A long winded video that in the end didn’t give anyone anything to go on.
A manufacturer does the right thing in helping out a stranded customer with the disclaimer that if it isn’t warranty they pay the costs. Tick, better service than most I think.
Invesigation concludes the damage was “environmental” and therefore not a warranty claim. You’d better call your insurer. Tick, if you believe them, but the internet warriors scream for the blood of the manufacturer- of course it’s warranty, how could it be anything else they scream, the car is shit they scream even louder!!!!! And then the insurance company after a long period of time works with the manufacturer to sort out the outcome, and go quiet on the cause and effect. BUT THEY DECIDE TO PAY. And now we have a conspiracy on our hands.

oh my God this is like a lunch time women’s Days of Our Lives soap opera.

But JC gets lots of clicks, and the internet is foaming.

So all is good with the world.

 

[Tazzieman]

oh my God this is like a lunch time women’s Days of Our Lives soap opera.

A fellow fan! I'm so glad there are at least two of us thoroughly modern chaps enjoying quality TV

 

[MattA]

First post - welcome to the forum. Shame you’re leaving so early.
Ineos are covering it, you should have watched the whole thing.

Ring up Toyota or VW or Ford and ask if they’d have been so helpful in the same circumstances. I think you migjt end up putting a deposit down on a grenny after those calls.

Now I’m confused, didn’t the insurance company cover it??

Lots of assumptions going on!!
Why do people think it’s the water crossing??
It wasn’t hydro locked from the river crossing, that’s very easy to confirm from watching the video and from when it stopped and all the oil spewing out.
I have seen multiple hydro locked vehicles on videos and while out on trips, none not one have had symptoms and stopped down the track
Just because a vehicle spends a moment above wading depth by a tiny amount for a few seconds does not prove or even imply that it cater issues
I have had my old Disco 1 with water 4 inches up the windscreen and driven out without it stopping
It’s amusing to think that a car would die so easily after going beyond manufacture specs, oh it’s a inch over the maximum it will stop now…

 

[Tazzieman]

"I don't have the facts "... and neither do you!"
Let's just allow the issue to ferment until real , verifiable facts emerge.
Until then it's idle gossip. And most of us are grown men, and thus don't gossip , or do we?

 

[bigleonski]

Now I’m confused, didn’t the insurance company cover it??

Lots of assumptions going on!!
Why do people think it’s the water crossing??
It wasn’t hydro locked from the river crossing, that’s very easy to confirm from watching the video and from when it stopped and all the oil spewing out.
I have seen multiple hydro locked vehicles on videos and while out on trips, none not one have had symptoms and stopped down the track
Just because a vehicle spends a moment above wading depth by a tiny amount for a few seconds does not prove or even imply that it cater issues
I have had my old Disco 1 with water 4 inches up the windscreen and driven out without it stopping
It’s amusing to think that a car would die so easily after going beyond manufacture specs, oh it’s a inch over the maximum it will stop now…

Agreed, my bad. And therefore it has to be assumed that, if the insurance company has covered it, then they have had to accept the “environmental” cause, and therefore it’s not an Ineos warranty problem but an “environmental” one. But don’t let that stop the punters from shitcanning Ineos.

I’d like to know the real issue and cause in the fullness of time. But only so I can either take measures to avoid the same, or not do what was done in a stock vehicle, which I figure is the same thing really. I’ve done worse crossings and worse tracks than those in 100 series and 200 series landcruisers, but modified with a snorkel, lift and bigger tyres, and always with a blind on the front, but wading mode largely negates that need now.

 

[4runnernomore]

I’d like to know the real issue and cause in the fullness of time. But only so I can either take measures to avoid the same, or not do what was done in a stock vehicle, which I figure is the same thing really.

Hopefully the potential cause will come out once the dust settles. Noting this appears to be a one off incident so far ,if a bit of protection can prevent this from happening to others it will be 100% worth finding out before someone else is unlucky enough to suffer the same fate in the future. Google B57 engine failures issues and this one came up

• Cracked and/or broken oil filter housing seal: A failed oil filter housing seal can lead to a significant oil leak, which may be costly to fix.

 

[Blackwolf]

Good news that the insurance company picked up the cost if the failure is a non-warrantable event. Assuming water ingress caused the failure he must be with someone like Club4x4 who insure for water damage from intentionally driving in deep water. Pretty sure there is a 5 or 10% excess payed by the policy holder for a deep water event.

Even the best engines have a few bad seeds.
View attachment 7914795
Bad day at 2500hp
This bloke does tear downs of all types of engines for his channel.

View: https://youtu.be/2Pbc_lQQaNk?si=BkN4CeqnOmLIyQWn

I thought it was interesting that the conclusion of the guy in the teardown video is that water ingestion killed that B58. I bet that motor was leaking oil up to the moment it stopped.

 

[Tazzieman]

Cracked and/or broken oil filter housing seal: A failed oil filter housing seal can lead to a significant oil leak, which may be costly to fix.

Sounds slightly less "environmental'' than the incident.
But worrying about engine failures is like worrying about heart attacks. Mitigate risks , and hang on
And if it happens , don't lawyer up!

 

[NQ94]

Now I’m confused, didn’t the insurance company cover it??

Lots of assumptions going on!!
Why do people think it’s the water crossing??
It wasn’t hydro locked from the river crossing, that’s very easy to confirm from watching the video and from when it stopped and all the oil spewing out.
I have seen multiple hydro locked vehicles on videos and while out on trips, none not one have had symptoms and stopped down the track
Just because a vehicle spends a moment above wading depth by a tiny amount for a few seconds does not prove or even imply that it cater issues
I have had my old Disco 1 with water 4 inches up the windscreen and driven out without it stopping
It’s amusing to think that a car would die so easily after going beyond manufacture specs, oh it’s a inch over the maximum it will stop now…

Agree there are a lot of assumptions that it was a hydrolock and the engine should of stopped in or near the creek. But if the engine has had major failure that caused considerable oil spillage that has been rejected by warranty one can assume how the car was operated has caused the failure.
The interesting thing is an engine can ingest a very small amount of water at low engine speed and bend a rod less than say .010" between centres and still run and to a lot of people the fault will won't be that noticeable until the rod possibly fails some time later due to fatigue cracking. The big difference now is most connecting rods in light weight diesel engines are not cast or forged but are made with a special pressed powdered steel process(first developed in the UK) to allow for the cracked big end caps this makes for less manufacturing processes and cheaper costs. These rods are less tolerant to minor bending and crack easier compared to conrods from 20 30 years ago.

 

[Steve.B]

Agree there are a lot of assumptions that it was a hydrolock and the engine should of stopped in or near the creek. But if the engine has had major failure that caused considerable oil spillage that has been rejected by warranty one can assume how the car was operated has caused the failure.
The interesting thing is an engine can ingest a very small amount of water at low engine speed and bend a rod less than say .010" between centres and still run and to a lot of people the fault will won't be that noticeable until the rod possibly fails some time later due to fatigue cracking. The big difference now is most connecting rods in light weight diesel engines are not cast or forged but are made with a special pressed powdered steel process(first developed in the UK) to allow for the cracked big end caps this makes for less manufacturing processes and cheaper costs. These rods are less tolerant to minor bending and crack easier compared to conrods from 20 30 years ago.

The connecting rods in B57 BMW motors are drop forged.
The crank is also forged.
The powdered steel process you are talking about is sintered.

 

[Braydo]

Agree there are a lot of assumptions that it was a hydrolock and the engine should of stopped in or near the creek. But if the engine has had major failure that caused considerable oil spillage that has been rejected by warranty one can assume how the car was operated has caused the failure.
The interesting thing is an engine can ingest a very small amount of water at low engine speed and bend a rod less than say .010" between centres and still run and to a lot of people the fault will won't be that noticeable until the rod possibly fails some time later due to fatigue cracking. The big difference now is most connecting rods in light weight diesel engines are not cast or forged but are made with a special pressed powdered steel process(first developed in the UK) to allow for the cracked big end caps this makes for less manufacturing processes and cheaper costs. These rods are less tolerant to minor bending and crack easier compared to conrods from 20 30 years ago.

Another factor I don’t see mentioned much is that they completed the track the same day - likely at low speed - and then travelled at a faster speed the next day. The sequence looked pretty typical of what can happen after a deep water crossing. If a small amount of water gets into the intake or even into the oil through breathers, the engine can keep running fine for hours — even start normally the next morning — but a bearing or conrod might already be weakened. Once you’re back at higher speeds or load, that’s when it can finally let go in a big way, which is what seemed to happen here with the oil light and the sudden failure.

To me the symptoms are still consistent with water damage. It could be something else. But I think it’s fair to assume that the ‘environmental factors’ is an honest assessment given it was accepted by the insurer.

There’s no reason to suspect conspiracy.

INEOS’s vague response is in the customer’s best interest.

Nothing to see here - let’s move on.

 

[DenisM]

I'm holding on to my optimism in light of the reliability experience to date of @Global Gregors on the Pan American Hwy and @MattP 's 5 yr round the world odyssey. Every marque has its issues....