Front Drive Shaft Update

[Logsplitter]

View attachment 7922481This is what the grooves under the CV joints look like. I hadn't noticed them before. To loosen the CV joints, a wedge-shaped tool would be ideal, such as a thick nail or a sharpened screwdriver that you drive into the slot with a hammer.

Is that your prop shaft

 

[ECrider]

View attachment 7922481This is what the grooves under the CV joints look like. I hadn't noticed them before. To loosen the CV joints, a wedge-shaped tool would be ideal, such as a thick nail or a sharpened screwdriver that you drive into the slot with a hammer.

I recognise that photo....!

 

[Greasemonkey]

There's a good reason why not all the interesting photos can be of my own car; otherwise, I'd have a real lemon.
So, if I find good photos in the forum that might be of technical interest someday, I save them. ECrider, if these are your photos, I hope you don't mind that they were used for the benefit of us all.

 

[ECrider]

There's a good reason why not all the interesting photos can be of my own car; otherwise, I'd have a real lemon.
So, if I find good photos in the forum that might be of technical interest someday, I save them. ECrider, if these are your photos, I hope you don't mind that they were used for the benefit of us all.

of course not chap. tks posting.

 

[pmatusov]

This tool might be a helpful aid for removing a damaged drive shaft. It is designed to fit precisely into the small groove behind the CV joint, allowing you to easily pry the joint out. It is compact and can be carried with you at all times. It is from Milwaukee.

The limited collective experience does not suggest any problems getting the front CV joint out of the pinion cup - but the rear from the transfer case. And there's no groove to stick any aid to.

 

[Dokatd]

The limited collective experience does not suggest any problems getting the front CV joint out of the pinion cup - but the rear from the transfer case. And there's no groove to stick any aid to.

The pinion and the T-case flanges are wildly different. I assume the pinion flange is made by Cararro and the T-case flange; who knows. But the T-case flange is coated and the pinion is not. There is clearly some galvanic corrosion or something by going on at the T-case.

A small or large pick is not going to get the T-case loose regardless. The T-case side can require some real force. But it's all totally doable even with the crossmember in place.

 

[CrazyOldMan]

I still have the loaner - drive shaft not yet replaced nor the turn signal stalk. I went back into the dealer because I wanted to get a bunch of fishing equipment out of the back of my Grenadier. Had a chance to talk to the service tech - he proposed an interesting theory, purely based on anecdotal evidence talking to other service techs at other dealers in the US. He was wondering whether the rubber in the boot was susceptible to either 1)cold temperatures or 2)road salt treatment. He just had a notion that dealers in colder climates might be seeing more failures.

I’m wondering whether we could put together a spreadsheet where everyone could enter their info - this is not just for drive shaft failure, but also boot tears:
username
Country
State/Province
Lift (y/n)
Approximate date failure discovered
Approximate mileage at failure
Notes - e.g member located in Texas, but spends a lot of time with their Grenadier up at Tahoe

@Stu_Barnes @Krabby - would something like this be possible or do we already have something like it? It could be helpful for IA. Perhaps this has already been covered and I just wasn’t paying attention, like the self-righteous Pharisee - “Lord, thank you that I am not like these other sinners with suspension lifts, and have not justly incurred your wrath for violating the design specs.”

 

[Dokatd]

I still have the loaner - drive shaft not yet replaced nor the turn signal stalk. I went back into the dealer because I wanted to get a bunch of fishing equipment out of the back of my Grenadier. Had a chance to talk to the service tech - he proposed an interesting theory, purely based on anecdotal evidence talking to other service techs at other dealers in the US. He was wondering whether the rubber in the boot was susceptible to either 1)cold temperatures or 2)road salt treatment. He just had a notion that dealers in colder climates might be seeing more failures.

I’m wondering whether we could put together a spreadsheet where everyone could enter their info - this is not just for drive shaft failure, but also boot tears:
username
Country
State/Province
Lift (y/n)
Approximate date failure discovered
Approximate mileage at failure
Notes - e.g member located in Texas, but spends a lot of time with their Grenadier up at Tahoe

@Stu_Barnes @Krabby - would something like this be possible or do we already have something like it? It could be helpful for IA. Perhaps this has already been covered and I just wasn’t paying attention, like the self-righteous Pharisee - “Lord, thank you that I am not like these other sinners with suspension lifts, and have not justly incurred your wrath for violating the design specs.”

So what's the explanation for the mass numbers down in the south where we don't even use salt.

I'm certain salt accelerates the failure but the base mechanism Is the same.

 

[CrazyOldMan]

So what's the explanation for the mass numbers down in the south where we don't even use salt.

I'm certain salt accelerates the failure but the base mechanism Is the same.

He was just going on anecdotal evidence - what would be interesting would be to see failures WITHOUT lift in different climates. He didn’t know for certain that the South had a lower relative number of failures.

 

[Brad@SuperiorCO]

I still have the loaner - drive shaft not yet replaced nor the turn signal stalk. I went back into the dealer because I wanted to get a bunch of fishing equipment out of the back of my Grenadier. Had a chance to talk to the service tech - he proposed an interesting theory, purely based on anecdotal evidence talking to other service techs at other dealers in the US. He was wondering whether the rubber in the boot was susceptible to either 1)cold temperatures or 2)road salt treatment. He just had a notion that dealers in colder climates might be seeing more failures.

I’m wondering whether we could put together a spreadsheet where everyone could enter their info - this is not just for drive shaft failure, but also boot tears:
username
Country
State/Province
Lift (y/n)
Approximate date failure discovered
Approximate mileage at failure
Notes - e.g member located in Texas, but spends a lot of time with their Grenadier up at Tahoe

@Stu_Barnes @Krabby - would something like this be possible or do we already have something like it? It could be helpful for IA. Perhaps this has already been covered and I just wasn’t paying attention, like the self-righteous Pharisee - “Lord, thank you that I am not like these other sinners with suspension lifts, and have not justly incurred your wrath for violating the design specs.”

This is a good conversation. I look at lifting my Grenadier with the Metal Cloak 2.5" lift, but I don't want the drive shaft headache. But still tempting.
It is unlikely that Ineos would ever share their data, to this forum is probably the best available. And Facebook.
I like your poll, be a bit more specific with the failure (mileage if stock, mileage after lift if not). But this is the only way to get data now. Maybe to get more data, the broadest reach would be the "Ineos Grenadier Owners Club" with 43,000 members.

I asked Claude to research data across The Forum and Facebook, acknowledging duplicate data. This is the result of the IA analysis. The first .pdf is The Forum only, V2 includes Facebook and prediction.

My conclusion: the risk is real, but it is 1.5%-3% of moderately lifted at this time. I'm not in a hurry, I would like to get more data.

 

[Zimm]

I don’t see salt or cold as an issue. There’s not enough material for the continued level of elasticity needed at the constant angle the joint is, so they crack and fail prematurely. I’m sticking with that.

 

[CrazyOldMan]

This is a good conversation. I look at lifting my Grenadier with the Metal Cloak 2.5" lift, but I don't want the drive shaft headache. But still tempting.
It is unlikely that Ineos would ever share their data, to this forum is probably the best available. And Facebook.
I like your poll, be a bit more specific with the failure (mileage if stock, mileage after lift if not). But this is the only way to get data now. Maybe to get more data, the broadest reach would be the "Ineos Grenadier Owners Club" with 43,000 members.

I asked Claude to research data across The Forum and Facebook, acknowledging duplicate data. This is the result of the IA analysis. The first .pdf is The Forum only, V2 includes Facebook and prediction.

My conclusion: the risk is real, but it is 1.5%-3% of moderately lifted at this time. I'm not in a hurry, I would like to get more data.


View attachment 7922851

Just so I understand - that’s just based on a textual analysis on the Forum and FB, correct?

 

[CrazyOldMan]

I don’t see salt or cold as an issue. There’s not enough material for the continued level of elasticity needed at the constant angle the joint is, so they crack and fail prematurely. I’m sticking with that.

Sorry to be dense - your hypothesis is that there is inadequate boot material, putting the boot under constant stress? Just trying to understand what you meant and wasn’t sure I got it.

 

[Brad@SuperiorCO]

Just so I understand - that’s just based on a textual analysis on the Forum and FB, correct?

Yes.
If you were to have a specific poll and get engagement then that would be much better foundational data.

This summarized this thread, which was easier than reading everything, and some other threads such as

Statistics/Poll Thread: Front driveshaft CV joint failures​

Front drive shaft spitting grease​

Split Boot

I think it's the best data anyone has right now.

 

[Zimm]

Sorry to be dense - your hypothesis is that there is inadequate boot material, putting the boot under constant stress? Just trying to understand what you meant and wasn’t sure I got it.

Yep. I’m not sayin got can’t be “pinched” I’m saying the boot material is formed with bellow, and the bellow is being stretched beyond or at the limit what it was designed for on a constant basis for the material elasticity, and it fatiguing. Lifts therefor fatigue faster. Any imperfection is a stress point and it fatigues faster at that point. And of course, pinch it and it fatigues there . OR.. don’t pinch it, but leave the shaft hang and pull on th boot for an hour while over stretching it while adding a lift, and it fatigues there.

If my theory is right, a more substantial curve in the bellow would maybe solve or extend the life… the only issue being, would the extra material flop around and lose shape while spinning at high speed. Maybe what we have is as good as can be made.

 

[CrazyOldMan]

Yep. I’m not sayin got can’t be “pinched” I’m saying the boot material is formed with bellow, and the bellow is being stretched beyond or at the limit what it was designed for on a constant basis for the material elasticity, and it fatiguing. Lifts therefor fatigue faster. Any imperfection is a stress point and it fatigues faster at that point. And of course, pinch it and it fatigues there . OR.. don’t pinch it, but leave the shaft hang and pull on th boot for an hour while over stretching it while adding a lift, and it fatigues there.

If my theory is right, a more substantial curve in the bellow would maybe solve or extend the life… the only issue being, would the extra material flop around and lose shape while spinning at high speed. Maybe what we have is as good as can be made.

Or what about an “accordion” bellow - kind of like a toilet plunger. Multiple rings in the bellow.

 

[HeavyFoot]

Or what about an “accordion” bellow - kind of like a toilet plunger. Multiple rings in the bellow.

The general consensus about this idea was that the rings would hold the grease, eventually end on the same side, and cause one side to hold a spinning heavy mass that would destroy the boot and create vibrations, causing other damage. The shape of the boot is said to help hold the grease where it needs to be. Slightly larger or altered shape of the boot would perhaps work, but no one I’ve read has been able to secure a manufacturer to try that.

 

[Texas Grenadier]

I had the pleasure of swapping out a buddy’s CV joint last Thursday night at MERUS in Palo Duro Canyon. I always carry a spare joint on my rig. This was my third time replacing a CV on a Grenadier — two times with @Dokatd on my own rig (with a lift), and this time it was a trail repair using a jack and on my back!!!

Note: I have 35” KO3s with a 2.5” Eibach lift.

On the last three repairs, each time the transfer case side was stuck in the cup and required a mallet and punch. Another method is to leave four bolts in on the differential side of the CV joint and remove all bolts from the transfer case side. After battling to break the shaft loose, I had to call @Dokatd a few times to ask him what the trick was. Finally, at his direction, with one wheel jacked up from the front left axle (we had to use the OEM stock bottle jack), we wrapped a ratchet strap around the rear CV joint (where the shaft narrows into the CV joint) and attached the other end of the strap to the front tow hook.
Note: The ratchet strap needs to be as parallel as possible to the attachment point to get the best angle and to keep the strap from slipping off.
Next, we took the transfer case out of neutral and put it into gear, then spun the left front wheel — and the CV joint broke loose. We then removed the four bolts that were left in on the differential side, and the shaft popped out. After that fun, we could not get the CV joint off the propshaft splines. (Yes, we removed the back cover of the CV joint with a flathead and a hammer and removed the C-clip that holds the joint on the splines.) After about an hour of hammering the joint with two hammers on each side to apply even force, we stopped for the night. Luckily, there was a hardware/machine shop in town that had a puller, and that did the trick. Our buddy’s CV joint boot had been ripped for a while. There was barely any grease left in the joint, and we surmised that the grease had thinned out and hardened in the splines, making it difficult to pull off. Using a hose pick, as suggested above, would never work — it would bend like an aluminum spoon.

Fun times........

 

[CrazyOldMan]

The general consensus about this idea was that the rings would hold the grease, eventually end on the same side, and cause one side to hold a spinning heavy mass that would destroy the boot and create vibrations, causing other damage. The shape of the boot is said to help hold the grease where it needs to be. Slightly larger or altered shape of the boot would perhaps work, but no one I’ve read has been able to secure a manufacturer to try that.

That’s a great point - obviously, I stopped following the thread, and then it happened to me. “Pride goeth before a fall.”

 

[Jeremy996]

I had the pleasure of swapping out a buddy’s CV joint last Thursday night at MERUS in Palo Duro Canyon. I always carry a spare joint on my rig. This was my third time replacing a CV on a Grenadier — two times with @Dokatd on my own rig (with a lift), and this time it was a trail repair using a jack and on my back!!!

Note: I have 35” KO3s with a 2.5” Eibach lift.

On the last three repairs, each time the transfer case side was stuck in the cup and required a mallet and punch. Another method is to leave four bolts in on the differential side of the CV joint and remove all bolts from the transfer case side. After battling to break the shaft loose, I had to call @Dokatd a few times to ask him what the trick was. Finally, at his direction, with one wheel jacked up from the front left axle (we had to use the OEM stock bottle jack), we wrapped a ratchet strap around the rear CV joint (where the shaft narrows into the CV joint) and attached the other end of the strap to the front tow hook.
Note: The ratchet strap needs to be as parallel as possible to the attachment point to get the best angle and to keep the strap from slipping off.
Next, we took the transfer case out of neutral and put it into gear, then spun the left front wheel — and the CV joint broke loose. We then removed the four bolts that were left in on the differential side, and the shaft popped out. After that fun, we could not get the CV joint off the propshaft splines. (Yes, we removed the back cover of the CV joint with a flathead and a hammer and removed the C-clip that holds the joint on the splines.) After about an hour of hammering the joint with two hammers on each side to apply even force, we stopped for the night. Luckily, there was a hardware/machine shop in town that had a puller, and that did the trick. Our buddy’s CV joint boot had been ripped for a while. There was barely any grease left in the joint, and we surmised that the grease had thinned out and hardened in the splines, making it difficult to pull off. Using a hose pick, as suggested above, would never work — it would bend like an aluminum spoon.

Fun times........

What does not kill us makes us stronger! Another tool to add to the pack list.