Front Drive Shaft Update

[Dokatd]

I doubt that is ever going to happen. And changing the front axle only improves the angle at the front axle, not the output at the transfer case which, I believe, is the main culprit of the failures. Best would be to redesign the transfer case and put the output shaft lower.

I know this might not make sense, but if you change/fix the front axles angle then you automatically fix the transfer cases angle. They are tied to one another.

 

[Dokatd]

I have been following this closely. I have to ask, am I being an irrational if I am having significant concerns about the vehicle and am seriously considering selling it? I have the small Eibach lift and 35" tires so I understand that I am increasing my chances for failure. I love the vehicle, but I just cannot have a vehicle that will leave me stranded. I just drove to a neighboring state to go hunting (which is something I regularly do) and was having second thoughts about driving my Grenadier. I have just over 27k on the vehicle and have not had any real issues. The lift was installed within the first couple of thousand miles. It is my daily driver and I use it for mild off-roading and as my hunting rig. I really want to keep it, but just can't get this issue out of my head. I am not sure what I would replace it with so that is an issue as well. The only vehicle I am really coming up with is a used G-wagon for a relatively similar price point and overall similarity. I would rather have the Grenadier, but this drive shaft issue is eating away at me. I can get over the lack of a remote start (would be really nice to have in my climate), the HVAC issues, and the other quirks. Some of them have actually become endearing to me. Is there hope of a resolution to this matter? Thank you in advance for your insights and hopefully talking me off this cliff!

27k miles without failure is great!!! It's possible you have very little caster on the axle which is very forgiving to the drive shaft angles. It would cause the steering to be fairly goofy, but it saves the driver shaft nonetheless.

Or you just have a unicorn, who knows.

 

[hon1nbo]

If you don't log in as a user there is a uniquely large amount of ads plastered all over the page, a cunning ploy to make you register and login.

Funny enough that usually drives away users from registering on most sites that do it; there's no indication that it changes with a login, and even registrations paid options highlight placing ads not removing them.

The disability issues were related to the same adverts. They'd pop up at random times, cover the entire page, regularly move their close icons. This is hell when you have motor tics or something else that makes you twitchy like stimming. For those of us who do we often would hover somewhere else to help avoid clicking out of what we're reading. So when ads rapidly pop up and the buttons that interact with it are always in a different place it would always act like we want to follow those links and take us to whatever stupid thing was in the and and away from the forum.


And not falling for the bait continuing the argument I must have been willfully ignorant so another mute goes out to the relevant person and I'll keep muting anyone who tries to debate that because it's not productive.

----
Back to the shaft stuff

As others have pointed out IA is in a tough spot here in the sheer cost of this kind of repair due to the engineering involved. I think the reason I keep being asked for corp to talk to me (though it hasn't happened yet) is that a fire like this is far more significant than a usual failure.
Loss of Motive Power, as it's often called in the US when some defect leads to sudden loss on the road, is already enough for a recall when the sample size gets high enough. But that is an indirect contributor to a crash or injury, i.e. other vehicles may crash into you, stopping in the road if you don't have momentum to exit, uphill rollback, or you may fail to reach a critical destination like a hospital but it's not injuring you directly.

If that same failure could cause a fire though is an issue that could cause direct harm.

When I was in uni I had to study engineering ethics like most of the department in order to graduate and vehicle recalls were actually one of the hardest focuses. If anyone wants to learn more about the statistics, determining factors, and how complicated the whole process can be if recommend reading the Firestone Recall saga in addition to the Pinto.

 

[Zimm]

I think at this point we all should meet at the Grenadier pub and find a solution over a couple of pints

NOW someone is talking.

Unfortunately this is going to be an aftermarket service or someone with an entrepreneurial spirit contracting with the open axle manufacturer to make a corrected geometry housing… I mean… even if IA shits the bed someday, there are 30000 axles out there that need service. Being an original buyer that has to plop 20k down for either sucks, but, for people buying used, that’ll be reflected in the depreciation.

Eventually, there may be an actual market. Like when they finally made corrected control arms for lifted 463’s.

Right now I’m pinning all my hopes on Dokatd… no pressure or anything.

 

[AFdude412]

I know this might not make sense, but if you change/fix the front axles angle then you automatically fix the transfer cases angle. They are tied to one another.

Recently, the shop I had doing my front bumper raised the Gren up on the lift to eye level. They had me step back and see that the transfer case is mounted in an upwards angle, likely to prevent angular issues on the rear shaft as well? I'm sure it has been looked at before, but I wonder what would be a more cost effective fix for Ineos, new front axles or finding a way to lower the TC/Tranny.

I know you've spent a lot of time on the matter. What do you think?

 

[Tom109]

Recently, the shop I had doing my front bumper raised the Gren up on the lift to eye level. They had me step back and see that the transfer case is mounted in an upwards angle, likely to prevent angular issues on the rear shaft as well? I'm sure it has been looked at before, but I wonder what would be a more cost effective fix for Ineos, new front axles or finding a way to lower the TC/Tranny.

I know you've spent a lot of time on the matter. What do you think?

T-case => Trans => Engine

As tight as the engine bay is, changing the tilt is a big deal.

 

[Ovrland Bill]

For discussions sake, let’s say IA issues a recall. Besides basically redesigning and replacing the entire driveline, what’s a realistic solution other than that? If they are really forced to re-engineer and update every truck on the road I’d image they’d be in financial ruin and close shop.

If Ineos was an aviation manufacturer, the FAA would issue an Airworthiness Directive (AD) ‘grounding’ the aircraft. The AD could permit continued flight operations, subject to periodic mandatory inspections, if the problem involves a part with a known, but predictable, failure mode progression.

What I am getting at here is that, if Ineos can fully understand these failures and develop a non-destructive testing regimen to detect fault progress, they could avoid the expense of a fleet-wide replacement program.

 

[C-Mack]

If IA eventually does a redesign it’ll be a combination of changes. I’m curious if they’ll drop entire powertrain straight down some amount maintaining the same engine/trans/transfer case angle? They’d have to redesign the transfer case crossmember and front engine mounts but is that going to be enough to improve the front driveshaft angles? Plus, what limitations would that put on overall ground clearance and possible axle articulation if the pinion is that much closer to the engine sump?

It seems likely the entire front axle will still have to change with increased pinion height/angle and the outer hubs rotated back for more caster if they choose to improve steering at the same time that is. I guess we can look forward to the massive depreciation on our current vehicles should a redesign happen as ours are marked as undesirable or flawed from an engineering perspective by the market.

 

[AFdude412]

If IA eventually does a redesign it’ll be a combination of changes. I’m curious if they’ll drop entire powertrain straight down some amount maintaining the same engine/trans/transfer case angle? They’d have to redesign the transfer case crossmember and front engine mounts but is that going to be enough to improve the front driveshaft angles? Plus, what limitations would that put on overall ground clearance and possible axle articulation if the pinion is that much closer to the engine sump?

It seems likely the entire front axle will still have to change with increased pinion height/angle and the outer hubs rotated back for more caster if they choose to improve steering at the same time that is. I guess we can look forward to the massive depreciation on our current vehicles should a redesign happen as ours are marked as undesirable or flawed from an engineering perspective by the market.

I think I've already come to that conclusion. She'll stay in the garage for a very long time at this point.

 

[Dokatd]

Recently, the shop I had doing my front bumper raised the Gren up on the lift to eye level. They had me step back and see that the transfer case is mounted in an upwards angle, likely to prevent angular issues on the rear shaft as well? I'm sure it has been looked at before, but I wonder what would be a more cost effective fix for Ineos, new front axles or finding a way to lower the TC/Tranny.

I know you've spent a lot of time on the matter. What do you think?

It's not practical to adjust the T-case angle. This opens a huge can of worms and more or less every modern 4wd has this same configuration. The defect is 100% in the front axle geometry. Had they designed the truck with enough caster in the front axle we would all just be cranking back the castor a bit and living a happy life with our Grenadiers. But sadly they designed the truck with relatively little caster and so you cannot change the pinion angle enough without killing your handling completely.

 

[Tenac]

It's not practical to adjust the T-case angle. This opens a huge can of worms and more or less every modern 4wd has this same configuration. The defect is 100% in the front axle geometry. Had they designed the truck with enough caster in the front axle we would all just be cranking back the castor a bit and living a happy life with our Grenadiers. But sadly they designed the truck with relatively little caster and so you cannot change the pinion angle enough without killing your handling completely.

What about a cut and strip of the axel connections, rotate and re-weld ?? I'm talking with a custom builder shop that recommends having it for a few weeks to see about doing that.... Thoughts?

 

[Dokatd]

What about a cut and strip of the axel connections, rotate and re-weld ?? I'm talking with a custom builder shop that recommends having it for a few weeks to see about doing that.... Thoughts?

The design of the front axle is such that this is relatively hard compared to other trucks. It will require some other components to complete it as well.

It's doable, but a considerable task. Honestly it may be easier and cheaper to change the front axle out all together. Maybe a built Dana 44 or a 60 if you want over kill. But then you almost might as well swap the rear to a 60 as well.

If I can get a housing as a core I would be more than happy to start dissecting it to see what's truly possible. I have seen several detailed photos of the front axle torn down and understand the assembly, but I need it in hand.

 

[Dokatd]

Right now I’m pinning all my hopes on Dokatd… no pressure or anything.

Doing what I can, and I will solve it on my truck. I will do my best to keep my solution practicable for everyone.

Hopefully my drive shaft solution will be done by first of the year.

 

[[ Adam ]]

Doing what I can, and I will solve it on my truck. I will do my best to keep my solution practicable for everyone.

Hopefully my drive shaft solution will be done by first of the year.

I intend to stay stock height, but given I'm already on my second drive shaft at 35k miles... I have my doubts about the factory setup.

 

[Tenac]

The design of the front axle is such that this is relatively hard compared to other trucks. It will require some other components to complete it as well.

It's doable, but a considerable task. Honestly it may be easier and cheaper to change the front axle out all together. Maybe a built Dana 44 or a 60 if you want over kill. But then you almost might as well swap the rear to a 60 as well.

If I can get a housing as a core I would be more than happy to start dissecting it to see what's truly possible. I have seen several detailed photos of the front axle torn down and understand the assembly, but I need it in hand.

Yeah they build their own as well, so it might come to that.... I haven't committed yet either, honestly I'm thinking portal version when it arrives and that way I'll be stock lol they cannot deny that. lol

 

[Dokatd]

I intend to stay stock height, but given I'm already on my second drive shaft at 35k miles... I have my doubts about the factory setup.

The shaft I'm working on will 100% work on stock. But the question remains on mine with 2" lift. It should work fine, but recommended max joint angles will be exceeded.

 

[255/85]

... I've never had to total a car before and this insurance is the first time I've made a claim with them, so I'm not sure what to expect especially with the holiday.

Typically you get the money and the insurance company gets the vehicle. You can do a buy back but it's rarely worth it as the cost to repair outweighs the replacement cost. I did it once and broke even but I kneew the adjuster was wrong to total the car.

Can't Cararro redesign the front axel? This gets to the cut and turn approach. The IA replaces axels when cv goes. New Grenadier have the solution straight from productions. Spreads out the financial hit.

The differential casting can be rotated but it would introduce all kinds of issues as the connection for the left lower control arm is cast in place and not alterable per se. A new center section would have to be designed. I guess that's not impossible but it would be costly. It would be easier to weld in a lower control arm bracket as part of the shock bracket if it could be made strong enough. The left shock bracket is welded to the tube and already in line with the control arm bolt.

The axle ends can be rotated as well. That could give you better caster for road driving but won't help the driveshaft issue. I think we all know that. I'm glad I like the way our vehicle drives but not everyone is as lucky it seems.

The easy solution still looks like a larger CV joint at each end of the front shaft that won't pinch the boot maybe even with a modest lift to run 35s - a least to me it does. A little diff armoring will keep it out of the dirt. What am I missing here?

@Zimm - Well, it's a meme now. Vehicle fires tend to do that.

 

[Dokatd]

Typically you get the money and the insurance company gets the vehicle. You can do a buy back but it's rarely worth it as the cost to repair outweighs the replacement cost. I did it once and broke even but I kneew the adjuster was wrong to total the car.



The differential casting can be rotated but it would introduce all kinds of issues as the connection for the left lower control arm is cast in place and not alterable per se. A new center section would have to be designed. I guess that's not impossible but it would be costly. It would be easier to weld in a lower control arm bracket as part of the shock bracket if it could be made strong enough. The left shock bracket is welded to the tube and already in line with the control arm bolt.

The axle ends can be rotated as well. That could give you better caster for road driving but won't help the driveshaft issue. I think we all know that. I'm glad I like the way our vehicle drives but not everyone is as lucky it seems.

The easy solution still looks like a larger CV joint at each end of the front shaft that won't pinch the boot maybe even with a modest lift to run 35s - a least to me it does. A little diff armoring will keep it out of the dirt. What am I missing here?

@Zimm - Well, it's a meme now. Vehicle fires tend to do that.

Increasing joint size won't typically increase operating angle. You just end up with a bigger joint blowing out. A modified boot would help, but Jeeps have had the same issue for over a decade and haven't solved it using Rzeppa joints. I have a plan B for this, but I'm not sure it's a fool proof solution. I might move forward with it anyways to see what happens.

And the outer castings need to be rotated but the diff generally stays in place. We are only talking a couple degrees of rotation on the diff to solve the shaft problem. I believe the spring perches etc can stay in place. New links will have to be made to allow the diff to sit where it needs to be. Then we rotate the outer castings to give maybe up to 3-4° of caster. All would be good at that point assuming there are no oiling issues with the pinion. The link mount on the diff shouldn't need to be changed or deleted. I stress shouldn't, but I'm fairly certain at the moment.

The biggest issue is the design of the Carraro axles and their use of DC joints for steering. The ends of the axle tubes have large bushings which may be problematic with cutting and turning. But I wouldn't know until I saw how the end castings are made. But the good part is the existing bushings give us a great set of alignment bushings for rotating the axle housing. We would just need to machine some alignment bushings for the carrier bearing saddles and a custom alignment bar.

All doable if we can get a donor housing to work with. Just waiting for a salvage housing to pop up. I have asked Sewell Ineos in Dallas to let me know if one comes around.

 

[255/85]

Increasing joint size won't typically increase operating angle. You just end up with a bigger joint blowing out. A modified boot would help, but Jeeps have had the same issue for over a decade and haven't solved it using Rzeppa joints. I have a plan B for this, but I'm not sure it's a fool proof solution. I might move forward with it anyways to see what happens.

I thought the issue is boot failure which leads joint failure. Are we seeing many joints blow without torn boots and loss of grease? If joint strength at maximum range of motion is the issue would moving to chromoly CV joints solve some of the strength concern or is a more Birfield-like design needed? Good quality aftermarket Birfields can operate up to 40º or thereabouts.

And the outer castings need to be rotated but the diff generally stays in place. We are only talking a couple degrees of rotation on the diff to solve the shaft problem. I believe the spring perches etc can stay in place. New links will have to be made to allow the diff to sit where it needs to be. Then we rotate the outer castings to give maybe up to 3-4° of caster. All would be good at that point assuming there are no oiling issues with the pinion. The link mount on the diff shouldn't need to be changed or deleted. I stress shouldn't, but I'm fairly certain at the moment.

I wouldn't think you could have differing lengths to either of the lower or either of the upper control arms. That would introduce twist into the whole assembly as the suspension articulated. Yes, rubber bushings can absorb some of that but I wouldn't know the allowable limit. If you corrected both links on the same side to match whatever percentage one of them was altered then you might get bump steer becase of the different radii scribed by the left and right side. Probably not a big deal off road but at speed it could be a thing. Dunno.

The biggest issue is the design of the Carraro axles and their use of DC joints for steering. The ends of the axle tubes have large bushings which may be problematic with cutting and turning. But I wouldn't know until I saw how the end castings are made. But the good part is the existing bushings give us a great set of alignment bushings for rotating the axle housing. We would just need to machine some alignment bushings for the carrier bearing saddles and a custom alignment bar.

It'll depend where/what the bushings are seated into but really it shouldn't matter as the ends are likely butted to a 90º cut at the tube end (but welded in a jig). It looks that way from the outside. If the bar also has a flange to bolt to the outer knuckle face (or whatever passes for a spindle/bearing mounting surface) it should retain the Ackermann angle as long as the kingpins are tight. Any change to the caster will affect Ackermann though.

All doable if we can get a donor housing to work with. Just waiting for a salvage housing to pop up. I have asked Sewell Ineos in Dallas to let me know if one comes around.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade. I'm just curious. It will be interesting to see what the MY26 axles look like.

 

[Clark Kent]

I'm in contact with a vendor who has done a tube rotation on two front axle housings. One is back in a vehicle logging test miles with good (adjustable) caster and corrected driveshaft angle. The other is being used to refine production processes. A jig is ready to go.
The vendor will make an announcement when they're happy with the product and price. Right is more important than right now.

I'm not able to answer any questions.