Front Drive Shaft Update

[Tazzieman]

Mine failed spectacularly in a molten ball of fire on the highway, and left no damage. That being said, if you went long enough for it to really fling around under neath, that could be bad.

My 1966 Mercedes W108 has a 30cm weld scar on the transmission tunnel, a reminder of the time the front propshaft rubber coupling gave way , I imagine at some speed, at some time in the past.

 

[OGrid]

Hmmmm. Their capability statement suggests they're in the right engineering space to assist. Getting them to see the scale of a global opportunity would be key to getting their interest. IA should talk to them about an OEM solution.

Any of you sand gropers in the Perth area feel like a drive to Mundaring? Take some beers .

Would be very interesting for them to have a look at the Grenadier’s design, while also hearing their take on the current issue. This outfit look sharp.
Australia once was one of the few countries in the world that could manufacture every part of an automobile, sadly those days are gone.

Definitely worthwhile for a WA owner to pay them a visit.

 

[Clark Kent]

Would be very interesting for them to have a look at the Grenadier’s design, while also hearing their take on the current issue. Australia once was one of the few countries in the world that could manufacture every part of an automobile, sadly those days are gone, but this mob look sharp.

Definitely worthwhile for a WA owner to pay them a visit.

The problem as always is the small market and low volume. Whilst it is likely they have the expertise to develop a solution, expecting a small business to invest the time and cost to develop something and amortize the outlay cost before making a profit is a big ask. Now if this was LC250 or LC300 or Ranger or Hilux that are all selling in volume in Australia that would make an investment decision easier.

If Dana Spicer (OEM of the Grenadier driveshafts) aren't already working on something with IA I really think our best chance is to lobby IA to get the problem acknowledged at the proper program level then guide them towards companies like Proformance to do an OEM solution with an Ineos warranty.
Proformance would be more receptive to a purchase order from IA for 00,000 parts, versus carrying the risk and cost themselves to do a retail part with no guaranteed ROI. It's also easier for them to deal with one customer for product support and warranty.

But you're right. A great place to start would be to show them the problem and test their interest.

 

[Tom109]

I'd be concerned if it failed on the road that it would either flop around enough to damage the transmission or transfer case, or hit the ground, dig in and destroy the transfer case and/or the transmission, + + +

I don't see how it could go that bad unless you ran it so long that the bearings broke apart and fell out. Even then, due to the design there might not be enough play in the flex joint to allow the splined shaft to back all the way out.

That exactly what happens if the C-clip fails.

 

[Dokatd]

I think it's important to realize that the CV in the Grenadier is the exact same part found in Jeeps and many other vehicles. Jeeps have had the same problem we are having for the most part. These problems have been going on for what; a decade?

Nobody has solved the joint problem. They just change to a Cardan shaft and call it good. But Jeeps don't have the messed up drive line geometry issues we have. So that works just fine.

We are in a tight spot boys! It's a solvable problem I think but not likely as simple as you would hope.

 

[HeavyFoot]

The problem as always is the small market and low volume. Whilst it is likely they have the expertise to develop a solution, expecting a small business to invest the time and cost to develop something and amortize the outlay cost before making a profit is a big ask. Now if this was LC250 or LC300 or Ranger or Hilux that are all selling in volume in Australia that would make an investment decision easier.

If Dana Spicer (OEM of the Grenadier driveshafts) aren't already working on something with IA I really think our best chance is to lobby IA to get the problem acknowledged at the proper program level then guide them towards companies like Proformance to do an OEM solution with an Ineos warranty.
Proformance would be more receptive to a purchase order from IA for 00,000 parts, versus carrying the risk and cost themselves to do a retail part with no guaranteed ROI. It's also easier for them to deal with one customer for product support and warranty.

But you're right. A great place to start would be to show them the problem and test their interest.

I’m not sure the market size is actually smaller. They’re dealing with people that LIFT their Cayenne or Toureg. That’s likely a smaller group than Grenadier owners.

 

[255/85]

That exactly what happens if the C-clip fails.

General question: Would a heavier snap ring help avoid complete failure once the boot has torn and the grease is gone? The groove would have to be cut wider. I trust it's not a true C-clip on the original joint. Only a full circle snap ring has any chance of staying in place. The Teraflex unit comes with a snap ring.

What about tapping the end of the shaft for a class 10.9 bolt and a heavy washer plate the same diameter as the snap ring as a secondary safety feature?

 

[Clark Kent]

I’m not sure the market size is actually smaller. They’re dealing with people that LIFT their Cayenne or Toureg. That’s likely a smaller group than Grenadier owners.

I don't disagree.
I deliberately avoided the cost factor. They would build 5 if someone wants to pay the price. The extreme CV they developed for Toureg also fits Cayenne and some Audi Q7s so they get a volume benefit across VAG brands. They sell that part for US$1950 per pair. User pays.

I'm acknowledging the general reaction of the aftermarket to date. They won't go first unless there is a big enough market to make it worthwhile. I don't know the story behind these Amarok and Toureg/Cayenne parts but once the initial work is done and the cost is recovered it's not hard to keep making them.

We need to hear from them. I don't know if the bulk of their oversized design could be packaged onto the end of a driveshaft, or if there is enough space to include the necessary bolt flange at the T/C. I'm really hoping that as a Motorsport business they're driven by solving engineering challenges and can't resist having a go at a solution. As @Dokatd notes above, it's not a new problem.

 

[Dokatd]

General question: Would a heavier snap ring help avoid complete failure once the boot has torn and the grease is gone? The groove would have to be cut wider. I trust it's not a true C-clip on the original joint. Only a full circle snap ring has any chance of staying in place. The Teraflex unit comes with a snap ring.

What about tapping the end of the shaft for a class 10.9 bolt and a heavy washer plate the same diameter as the snap ring as a secondary safety feature?

Factory and Terra are both "Snap Rings". I just used C-Clip as an easy generic descriptor. Lots of different types like E-clips etc.

 

[Dokatd]

Here are some pics from my original Ineos Joint. Glad I hung on to it. Two items to note, first is the spline marks on the clip. There is clearly some impact or at minimum friction taking place here. Second is the line or crease you see on the boot. That is the extrusion point of the boot. That crease does not exist on a new boot. It develops as the suspension cycles to its fullest extent in stock or modified form. The rubber is slowly extruded when partially pinched. This causes the boot to dramatically thin at this point. The rubber also breaks down likely due to the heat from extrusion. Eventually the rubber fails and due to RPMs of the shaft the boot starts to tear out.

 

[Roach]

Is there a long term fix to the issue? Several threads but didn’t see a definitive solution for lift and non-lift. If anybody is in the LA area there is a 4WD fabricator (mostly toy) that might have an idea:

RPM Garage

RPM Garage

www.rpmoffroadgarage.com

 

[C-Mack]

I’m not sure the aftermarket really wants to risk their reputation on a solution which might fail due to the compromised geometry of the front axle on the Grenadier and that’s before we even get to the return on investment conversation.

The best we have at the moment is Agile’s driveshaft but that’s not really a daily driver solution it’s more for reliable off-road fix as who wants to drive around constantly dealing with harmonic vibrations.

Not saying a true fix can’t be found, but this is on IA to resolve as ultimately it’s their reputation which is more at risk if they don’t address it. I wouldn’t want to be a Radcliffe or Calder walking around knowing the aftermarket is cleaning up my mistakes.

Any committed and customer focused brand would be all over this trying to figure it out even if it’s impacting non-stock vehicles more. Who wants to be known as the brand who is unfriendly or neglectful of the customer who is investing in their trucks and essentially serving as brand ambassadors? I’d want to keep that crowd as happy as possible as they are the most vocal.

 

[Roach]

When I toured their shop (years ago) several vehicles in for lockers, lift, etc.

seems like a new approach is needed, maybe a split shaft? Not cheap or easy but most folks want to keep it for 10+ and at some point changing the shaft at regular intervals not to mention “will this be the trip it comes undone”….