Freedom of speech, yes, but...

[YellowLab]

Social media is very bad for our world in my opinion.
This forum is great, especially for product info, but I sometimes find myself biting my tongue.
The Grenadier, Quartermaster, etc. will be great but they do need IA to stay with it and keep employing experienced people to get the quality right. They will be a money pit for quite some time, Ineos’ deep pockets and credibility will be needed for a while yet.

I’m eagerly anticipating the handover of mine later this year, September I hope as it is supposedly in build now. I don’t expect any problems with it.

I'm confident they will fix the issues - Ineos has too much reputation riding on this

 

[Eric]

Social media is very bad for our world in my opinion.
This forum is great, especially for product info, but I sometimes find myself biting my tongue.
The Grenadier, Quartermaster, etc. will be great but they do need IA to stay with it and keep employing experienced people to get the quality right. They will be a money pit for quite some time, Ineos’ deep pockets and credibility will be needed for a while yet.

I’m eagerly anticipating the handover of mine later this year, September I hope as it is supposedly in build now. I don’t expect any problems with it.

Look at it this way you'll be on a 73 plate. (Me too I hope)

 

[Jean Mercier]

@alvan of the Roman Empire

Fantastic emotional thread you started about the Grenadier.

And of course like me, English isn’t your and my mother tongue.

Shortly my opinion

• I love the car
• We can criticize anything about the car, as long as our intention is giving feedback to Ineos (they are watching this forum, but should be honest and tell us they are.)
• I am very pissed off of the “non communication” strategy of Ineos
• I am very pissed off that INEOS is “not providing" to US – early owners – even no draft information of our vehicle: “winch manual’, “electric circuits”, how to use the differential locks, etc. etc.
• I was (and still am) very angry that Ineos wasn’t providing us “honest” information why they didn’t deliver our vehicles at once (my vehicle was at my dealer on February 17, and I got it delivered on May 4!)
• But I love the car, that is what I wanted!

But I repeat: I am pissed off, of the lack of communication of Ineos, or the fake communication, hey Jim R are your reading this?

 

[klarie]

@Jean Mercier Lack of communication.. you visited the factory.. perhaps you got more insight than the rest of us.
Indeed there quite some thingies and design topics that should be explained and of course some more details on certain features ..
but comparing Ineos to other car makers .. they re far more open and granted far more insight in prototype and allowed us to participate in their journey.. there is no example like this In automotive history I remember.
I Never expected a perfect car .. there are always things that could be different. In Germany there was an a capella band Wise Guys from Cologne..
They had a song called ‘einer wird immer meckern‘ literally There will be always one who will complain. No matter how perfect you try to do.
in this case I think Ineos did and does a quite good job.

 

[alvan]

A problem that creates a lot of discontent is the discontinuity of communication. Few other brands have provided so many details, live presentation of prototypes and so much information during the development of a project, even those usually kept very secret. This great technical availability and the promise to continue also in the administrative office (naive idea to believe that the bureaucracy, even internally, has the same availability as the technicians...) has generated expectations that are not and perhaps could not be kept. Therefore, when compared to the availability of the technical aspect of the project, the communication that followed, and just at the moment in which the curious were transformed into customers (and therefore with greater desire to be informed), began to falter (website in backlog, continuously deferred deliveries, strange emails, etc) and to be even heavier than previously developed habits. When I bought the very first Defender Puma in 2007, the delivery date slipped from month to month up to eight months and no one deigned to inform me. No website, no email, no technical development updates. But no one had expectations in this sense and no one complained, even in the face of the many little problems that emerged...

 

[Cheshire cat]

Alvan, firstly, and if I am mistaken, please accept my apologies in advance but I see you are from Italy and therefore, if English is not your mother tongue, then 'hats off to you for engaging in a debate in a language that is not your first!' I have nothing but respect for people who are multi lingual and that put my basic French and German to shame!

I do understand what you are saying and there appear to be two distinct points: firstly, the cesspit that social media can be. I concur entirely and find much of it mean spirited and lacking in integrity, honesty and basic kindness. Many people who are the most active and vociferous on any form of social media are the last people to say the same things when faced with a person in 'the real world'; more often than not both armchair experts and conflict avoidant in their daily lives, hence blowing off steam online. There was a psychological study done recently and statistically, the people most active on sites such as Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Ticktok, etc, score far above the average for antisocial and psychopathic behavioural traits. Reading the study, I cannot say I was hugely surprised; narcissistic behaviour does seem to, more often than not, be the rule of the day. All generations look at the younger generation with a mix of concern and rejection of their 'new' values but I can honestly say that I do not think we have ever seen a younger generation who are so self absorbed, display confidence on social media and yet are riddled with self doubt and lacking in the ability to both stick with any task for an extended period of time and when they fail so quick to blame others. I know this is a sweeping generalisation and there are gems in the mix; however, social media and smart phones have an awful lot to answer for; the majority of it not positive.

Secondly, to answer your point about owners sounding off about the Grenadier - setting my post above to one side - I question how many of them also include speculators who are surprised and disappointed that they cannot turn a quick profit. My guess would be that there are a fair few in the mix who saw the £10k+ premium attainable on a Hardtop Defender 90 and thought they'd cash in. I'll go so far as to say I met a new owner in a carpark who told me as much - I bought it and if I don't like it, I'll flip it. I didn't have the heart to tell them that dealers have unsold cars. Needless to say, I can imagine that person being someone who rapidly turns unhappy and vocal when they cannot exit the car without the standard depreciation you expect on a new car purchase (in the UK 20% when you drive off the forecourt - prior to pandemic/post pandemic supply chain shortages and inflated used car values (all of which are rapidly on the wane for most vehicles).

If I was an owner, I'd personally enjoy driving it and ignore all the negative chatter - if you have no plans to sell, residual value is irrelevant and you cannot easily put a price or quantify the enjoyment of a new vehicle.

Toady
Earlier I suggested the Grenadier might not be for you. Now I’m not so sure. Lots of what you say does make sense and it will be interesting to see how you go.

 

[Heater]

To anyone that cares for my input or opinion… I’m just straight up very happy this vehicle is happening and will enjoy it. I have never worked on or managed a new or old state of the art product (e.g., military aircraft) that did not come with its share of shortcomings post-delivery to the customer.

It should not be a surprise that delivery of a special product is a trade off of cost, schedule and performance that typically is an ongoing engineering effort post-field/operational delivery into the future sustainment phase. I’m ready to contend with issues, so long as they are safe and manageable, which I believed IG is working towards.

@alvan - This is some very good dialog you started by the way.

 

[Tazzieman]

My oh my there are some long posts above. Can somebody dot point a summary in no more than 20 words?

 

[Krabby]

Truck good.
People suck.

 

[Tazzieman]

Truck good.
People suck.

 

[bmore_burnsy]

I’m just straight up very happy this vehicle is happening and will enjoy it.

Amen to that. It’s the first vehicle I’ve ever thought of as more than tool. It’s also the first that caused me to join an enthusiast forum

 

[DaveB]

Amen to that. It’s the first vehicle I’ve ever thought of as more than tool. It’s also the first that caused me to join an enthusiast forum

Well that is good and disappointing at the same time.
I have owned many vehicles that I purchased because of their character or quirks
Like me many people on here have owned or do own many cars that are special.
Or at least special to them.
Maybe you are still young and need sensible transport

 

[bmore_burnsy]

Yes, 37 years young. Don’t get me wrong—I find many vehicles to be beautiful works of art (458, 911) and/or superb examples of engineering marvels (McLaren F1, Bugatti Veyron). But something in the realm of possibility for a (middle class) layman that pushes all the buttons? The Grenadier is the first.

 

[Max]

My oh my there are some long posts above. Can somebody dot point a summary in no more than 20 words?

You are the first Aussie to post and now Dave the second...does that sum it up in twenty words?

 

[alvan]

One more point... I don't remember another case in which a brand confirms the price to those who have placed a pre-order a long time ago, even after the final price has risen quite a bit (those who have enjoyed this treatment must not forget that it was an unusual division of risks). On the contrary, I know of cases in which the price was adjusted even after signing the contract... It is evident that, from a certain point on, everything has returned to normal in a commercial relationship, but I cannot fail to underline how much that choice was unusual. This confirms my idea that there is a before (brand conducted with the laws of enthusiasm) and an after (normal commercial relationship)...

 

[Tazzieman]

You are the first Aussie to post and now Dave the second...does that sum it up in twenty words?

Dave & I would make poor lawyers or policy writers

 

[Jean Mercier]

After reading all this, perhaps I should also see indeed the more positive points too:

• Yes, I visited the
• Yes Ineos shared a lot of information while they were building the car
• Yes they sticked to the promised price as @alvan said
• Yes the car is build on purpose
• But still: why do I get more technical information here than at my dealer?

OK, Jim R, I apologise for being too harsh, like @klarie was suggesting, but , drawings, manuals, maintenance and repair instructions, you also promised this. Are you reading this?

 

[Tazzieman]

OK, Jim R, I apologise for being too harsh, like @klarie was suggesting, but , drawings, manuals, maintenance and repair instructions, you also promised this. Are you reading this?

No he'll be watching football replays and wondering if he can change the course of Manchester United's history.
I'm sure he's ticked the <Grenadier project done> box and moved on to other adventures.

 

[alvan]

• But still: why do I get more technical information here than at my dealer?

OK, Jim R, I apologise for being too harsh, like @klarie was suggesting, but , drawings, manuals, maintenance and repair instructions, you also promised this. Are you reading this?

Jean, do you think that I ever got more technical information directly by Porsche than by independent forums?
And do you think that you can get as just as an owner maintenance manuals directly by Porsche without paying thousands euros?
Is it just a coincidence that a huge independent technical literature flourishes around Porsche?
I'm referring to Porsche as a relatively passionate dedicated brand, but I don't think something will change if you substitute any other brand.
I collected any sort of technical manuals just by a long and passionate relationship with dealers, technicians and also the technical officials of the brands like Porsche, Land Rover, Ducati, etc...

 

[Eric]

Jean, do you think that I ever got more technical information directly by Porsche than by independent forums?
And do you think that you can get as just as an owner maintenance manuals directly by Porsche without paying thousands euros?
Is it just a coincidence that a huge independent technical literature flourishes around Porsche?
I'm referring to Porsche as a relatively passionate dedicated brand, but I don't think something will change if you substitute any other brand.
I collected any sort of technical manuals just by a long and passionate relationship with dealers, technicians and also the technical officials of the brands like Porsche, Land Rover, Ducati, etc...

I agree @alvan, but @Jean Mercier point is Ineos promised them at the start of the project, Porsche didn't