Ask INEOS - Does the Grenadier Have ETC?

[Agile1]

The ESC does have a ETC component, and for those times axle lockers aren't engaged, it will intervene. INEOS can't seem to use consistent terminology among their publications, but I suspect their ETC system includes at least what they call "Brake Torque Control" in the ESC Matrix. The intervention (of braking a slipping wheel) is after a longer delay than some other OEM systems, so I think that confuses some people who are waiting for it to kick in. I finally saw a video that demonstrates this nicely.

Yes, I do have RDL and FDL on my Trialmaster. I'm far more likely to use them than depend on the ESC system. But I'd still like to know when and how the ESC system will intervene. And for those owners who don't have lockers, this information would seem pretty important.

I said this in my original email to INEOS (see the very first post in this thread):


INEOS didn't address my comment, but braking a wheel is how the ETC system works . . . the only way to "reduce torque to a wheel" is to pull engine power and that won't help if the wheel is up in the air spinning against nothing.

The ESC does not apply the brake enough to stop torque to a lifted tire.
The factory TCS is a mildly effective tool for a Grenadier, for mild off road use.

For owners without lockers an aftermarket solution will be available soon.

 

[Glen]

Is there any light/indicator when ESC/ETC kicks in, or only the change in handling?

I’ve pushed my Gren through on-road twisties with light rain and felt only a controlled drift at the edge of traction. Never any lights or change in handling.

From the owner's manual: "When ESC is triggered and engaged, the ESC telltale lamp will blink." There are multiple versions of the owner's manual - this reference is from the latest digital version that says it applies to features available for order for 2024 models, page 139.

 

[Tom109]

From the owner's manual: "When ESC is triggered and engaged, the ESC telltale lamp will blink." There are multiple versions of the owner's manual - this reference is from the latest digital version that says it applies to features available for order for 2024 models, page 139.

Thanks for that Glen. I have not had any telltale lamps when 4-wheel drifting. Low sensitivity? That’s OK with me.

 

[Glen]

The ESC does not apply the brake enough to stop torque to a lifted tire.
The factory TCS is a mildly effective tool for a Grenadier, for mild off road use.

For owners without lockers an aftermarket solution will be available soon.

I'd agree the ETC is far less agressive than what I've seen demonstrated on other vehicles, especially those that don't have the option of a locking diff. Here's the best video I've seen documenting the INEOS ESC in action: Grenadier vs Mud ... This video starts at the 8-minute mark: watch until about time 09:30 to see a demonstration of the ESC intervening on a slipping wheel with axle diffs unlocked.

For comparison, here's a demonstration of ESC individual wheel braking on a Subaru (with comparison to a Tesla): Slip Test.

 

[Ron50]

Thanks for that Glen. I have not had any telltale lamps when 4-wheel drifting. Low sensitivity? That’s OK with me.

Tom, have you noticed that well before the drifting stage cruise drops out?

By the stage the ESC lights appear in off-road mode you're pretty "occupied".

 

[Tom109]

Tom, have you noticed that well before the drifting stage cruise drops out?

By the stage the ESC lights appear in off-road mode you're pretty "occupied".

Ron - I don't think I have ever used the Gren's cruise control.

 

[255/85]

The ESC does not apply the brake enough to stop torque to a lifted tire.
The factory TCS is a mildly effective tool for a Grenadier, for mild off road use.

The system has been shown to be slow to activate and requires a longer period of wheel spin than some manufacturers. Good enough for the average user or Country Club set.

For owners without lockers an aftermarket solution will be available soon.

Alright, sing.

 

[255/85]

Tom, have you noticed that well before the drifting stage cruise drops out?

By the stage the ESC lights appear in off-road mode you're pretty "occupied".

During aggressive corneing (4Hi + CDL unlocked) I've experienced the system cutting power well before what I would have assumed was the drifting stage. The pedal becomes almost completely unresponsive.

 

[David B]

The ESC does not apply the brake enough to stop torque to a lifted tire.
The factory TCS is a mildly effective tool for a Grenadier, for mild off road use.

For owners without lockers an aftermarket solution will be available soon.

I’d like to know more about the after market lockers please?

 

[Rok_Dr]

I received a reply from INEOS regarding my request for additional clarification. Here are their answers:

Q - 5.a How does locking the center, rear or front differentials affect operation of the ETC system?

A - "I have been advised to direct you to the table in the attachment for clarification on this point."


Q - 5.b. How does enabling "Offroad Mode" affect the ETC system?

A - No direct answer, although the attached table should help with an answer.


Q - 5.c. For vehicles without rear and front locking differentials (or the differentials are unlocked), how can the driver best use the ETC system to overcome a spinning wheel that has little or no traction? To put it another way, how can the driver intentionally invoke the ETC system to simulate a limited-slip or locked differential? Should the center differential be locked or unlocked in these cases?

A - "This system uses inputs to determine when it is required and will activate as necessary. It operates autonomously and requires no driver intervention."


Q- 5.d. The owner's manual states that engaging "Offroad Mode" will result in "delayed ESC intervention." Is the response simply delayed, or is it delayed and of a different character? If it's of a different character, please describe the difference compared to "Offroad Mode" not enabled.

A - "This point delves into the characteristics and behavior of the system at a software level, which is considered proprietary information (IP). Therefore, I would recommend referring to the user manual and accompanying information for further details."


INEOS attached a table in the form of a .png graphic of very low resolution - so low that it is difficult to read. Some text is obscured by red highlighting directing my attention to entries for TCS. I have transcribed the table into a PDF document that should be more readable. I kept the format the same and provide two versions - one with the abbreviations in the left-most column and another with the definition of those abbreviations in the left-most column. I have attached all three documents to this post. If you can see any errors in the transcription or more likely candidates where I had to guess (see the notes in the Abbreviation / Definitions table), then let me know.

Thank you for deciphering the image and taking the time to make the pdfs @Glen. Would you mind if I included your verbose table with acknowledgement in the next edition of the Rok_Dr manual?

Cheers
Steve