Americas The threat to Ineos Dealers

[NQ94]

Yeh mate it's very slow but there is the interest. NQ94, you make a strong point about getting into fleet sales. I work in the mining industry and theyre replacing the cruisers with rangers soon as they have a 5-star ANCAP rating. Ineos could do extremely well here by asking the big miners to purchase a few each and offer free service and just pay for parts to test there ruggedness for 1 year. If they survive then offer them a fleet deal. At the very least it would give Ineos a great test bed to prove the brand in Australia side by side where toyota gained a solid reputation . At the moment Ronny Dahl is the only one advertising the brand here and thats how i found out about the brand. Imagine if the media advertised, "Ineos enters Pilbara mining Industry". Wouldn't take long for the brand to become very well known down under

We are starting to see QM adverts during the 600pm news in the Qld mining regions.

 

[Rayzar]

We are starting to see QM adverts during the 600pm news in the Qld mining regions.

That's some good news. Larger car sales volumes could lead to larger parts inventory in Oz. I dont mind so much only having one dealer over here in WA as dosnt matter what brand car you drive outback you've got to get it back somewhere if you break down. But id hate to be waiting 6 weeks or longer with a part coming from Europe for example: smashed up transmission cooler that was wiped out by a roo or feral pig. Ive asked about some basic parts inventory in Australia but all I get told is if they dont have it wont take long to come from overseas. Im just needing a bit more confidence to place an order. Im not going to be forced to buy a Toyota or other brand until I research this to death as they are just built better than the rest IMHO for going bush which is what I need a new car for. And it would be nice if they released some sort of a manual to take out there to try and fix basic breakdowns and read fault codes.

 

[AWo]

We are starting to see QM adverts during the 600pm news in the Qld mining regions.

Can you identify if that are adverts from the dealer(s) or Ineos?

AWo

 

[NQ94]

Can you identify if that are adverts from the dealer(s) or Ineos?

AWo

They may be dealer, the offer is for QM Aud from $99k with AU Business Number ABN for tax.

 

[AWo]

I might be wrong, but I didn't see any advertisements from Ineos for month, except on channels like Youtube or LinkedIn, where they post (free of charge) videos with people, somehow linked to Ineos or are dependend on them driving the Grenadiers and QM's. Or snippets from former activities but with no essential message.

Will that do it?

AWo

 

[MrMike]

In our state of Western Australia the dealer said they sold 30 cars since Jan. It's not alot but there's potential for alot more over here. With only one dealer here, the idea of a mobile tech travelling around the state in a quarter master makes alot of sense. Servicing, minor repairs, pads etc. Anything major could be booked into the main workshop and have the parts ordered well before by the tech. They could even offer a roadside assistance. It'd reassure me in a purchase out in remote areas instead of me trying to get a car back to the dealer some 2000kms away, which would cost an arm and a leg. Not to mention the caravan that may be on the back. These cars are so nice and a welcome change to the 4WD community that I so hope they succeed long term.

The local W.A dealership service locations is about to change, hopefully for the better.

 

[MrMike]

That’s only 5 a month. That’s really slow.

You also have to remember that there are only 2.5 million people in Western Australia, Perth has 2 of that 2.5.

 

[MrMike]

Yeh mate it's very slow but there is the interest. NQ94, you make a strong point about getting into fleet sales. I work in the mining industry and theyre replacing the cruisers with rangers soon as they have a 5-star ANCAP rating. Ineos could do extremely well here by asking the big miners to purchase a few each and offer free service and just pay for parts to test there ruggedness for 1 year. If they survive then offer them a fleet deal. At the very least it would give Ineos a great test bed to prove the brand in Australia side by side where toyota gained a solid reputation . At the moment Ronny Dahl is the only one advertising the brand here and thats how i found out about the brand. Imagine if the media advertised, "Ineos enters Pilbara mining Industry". Wouldn't take long for the brand to become very well known down under

Moves are afoot on the Pilbara front, I bought this up in our teleconference with Lynn Calder, I said- if I'm in Broome do I drive 1800klms to Darwin or 2200klms to Perth for a service. The only Gren owner I know in Pt Headland trucked his for a service at great cost as you can imagine

 

[Roach]

Curious, once they open up self service, how many will self repair....30%, higher/lower? Sure, some repairs yes and other no but in general how many would do the work themselves?

If the dealer is losing money monthly and you remove the warranty revenue stream, whats left for the dealer?

Maybe time for owners to organize into something that can help reinvent Ineos, a partnership: repair, sales, etc. Jr might be ready to look at this through a new lens and WA might be a good place to test the theory.

For those in WA, what would you put in the pot to move this forward (a membership fee for operational costs, time, ???). In return, if the brand could get a foot hold (big if) then it could be profitable.

 

[Itsdchz]

Lots of amazing information and ideas in this thread… Let’s hope Ineos is listening…

 

[Gaffer]

Interview of Lynn Calder on Yahoo News. I'm not sure where to post this but I thought it interesting.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/as-ineos-looks-to-grow-in-the-us-it-must-deal-with-trumps-tariffs-and-the-chicken-tax-on-trucks-131729992.html

 

[Rayzar]

Curious, once they open up self service, how many will self repair....30%, higher/lower? Sure, some repairs yes and other no but in general how many would do the work themselves?

If the dealer is losing money monthly and you remove the warranty revenue stream, whats left for the dealer?

Maybe time for owners to organize into something that can help reinvent Ineos, a partnership: repair, sales, etc. Jr might be ready to look at this through a new lens and WA might be a good place to test the theory.

For those in WA, what would you put in the pot to move this forward (a membership fee for operational costs, time, ???). In return, if the brand could get a foot hold (big if) then it could be profitable.

I feel the dealers would be ok with work while the warranty period is in process and me personally I wouldn't be doing anything that would void that, but without looking at the 5 year unlimited Kms fine print, im not sure what's covered inside of 5 years that might tempt someone to do their own work. I'd want a manual purely to understand what makes the car roll so if stuck somewhere it could save me a 10k towing bill from the Gibb river back to Perth. Manuals are also handy to me just for some minor servicing, changing belts if damaged, perhaps brake pads, changing oils at half service intervals because that's what make you feel your looking after your investment, but still have the service done by dealer at required miles. Im an electrical tech so being able to test a sensor or switch would help me if im broken down and all I need is a $100 part instead of 400km trip, stuck in perth at dealer.
As for the pot, that's a difficult one. If I order a trial master online they way I want it that'll be around 140k. Alot of money to then be forking out into a pot. That GR sport is closing the gap.

 

[MattA]

I think the whole service thing and owners having full access to the manual which was promised is a issue in itself
If owners are given the manual and told they can do self service where does that leave the warranty?
Nowhere is where, all services and repairs must be carried out by to maintain any warranty
Why and how could any maintenance be guaranteed dissonant a owner not a trained mechanic

 

[NQ94]

I think the whole service thing and owners having full access to the manual which was promised is a issue in itself
If owners are given the manual and told they can do self service where does that leave the warranty?
Nowhere is where, all services and repairs must be carried out by to maintain any warranty
Why and how could any maintenance be guaranteed dissonant a owner not a trained mechanic

Giving out the manual won't be an issue. Most people will just use it as something to research and understand their cars better and show their mates. The warranty will be an issue in Australia for unqualified people doing their own repairs.
With my LC I never got declined warranty claims from factory faults even though I completed all the servicing jobs at home. I did have to show I was working in the trade to convince a few service mangers plus I was responsible for my own quality or poor workmanship. Most good dealer techs can pick up if a car has been serviced properly. The one caveat I did learn later was if I serviced or repaired a friends car with out a business number there could be warranty issues for them.

 

[255/85]

There is clear evidence, that this is not the case. It is vice versa, the US was a key market right from the start. BTW, that is one of the most important decisions before you plan any car. You need to plan it right from the beginning for the designated markets. You'll not be able to add market specific modifications later, nor change your production in this direction. So every car manufacturer starts with all markets in mind, they want to sell to.

From an interview with Dirk Heilmann in 06/2020 (Automobilwoche):
Mark Tennant identifies here Europe, USA and Australia as the main markets. And that the Grenadier should become a lifestyle car for enthusiasts.
View attachment 7902850

From an interview I did with Mark Tennant 03/2020 he told me that the Grenadier will be available in Europe first, then North America (however, in reality Australia was served before the USA):

Im Gespräch mit Mark Tennant von Ineos Automotive über den Grenadier

Seit ziemlich genau 3 Jahren ist bekannt, das Jim Ratcliffe den Geländewagen schlechthin entwickeln und produzieren möchte. Dazu gründete der Inhaber des Petrochemie-Riesen INEOS eigens eine Automotive-Sparte. Einiges ist seit dem passiert, zuletzt die Bekanntgabe der Kooperationen mit BMW...

matsch-und-piste.de

From an article 06/2021 (Automobilwoche):
Dirk Heilmann speaks about the sales modell and the the car first sales will be in Europe and the US will follow.
View attachment 7902852
From 07/2021, BMWBlog (https://www.bmwblog.com/2021/07/09/...the-bmw-powered-off-roader-you-always-wanted/)
"Sales of the Ineos Grenadier are said to start in 2023, with the European market getting it first but North American sales to follow. If you love BMW but always wanted an off-roader, this could be the car for you. It’s not going to be cheap but it’s going to be a very interesting vehicle, designed from the ground up to be a no-nonsense off-roading machine. It also gets BMW power, so it should be dependable and fun to drive."

From an article 02/2022 (Automobilwoche)
"Jim Ratcliffe thinks further on - he doesn't want to sell the Grenadier not only in Europe but also in America and Africa".
View attachment 7902851

From an interview with Lynn Calder in 09/2023 in the German Automobilwoche:
She said, that they put great hope into the US market. After opening the order books it has immediately become the major market for Ineos.
View attachment 7902849

Another interesting statement from an Australian interview in 2020: "“We’ve got some great innovative ideas on service networks… which is really fundamental [to the Grenadier’s success]. The biggest ‘why not buy’ is where do I get my parts and where am I going to get it fixed.”"

INEOS Grenadier debuts - carsales.com.au

Unapologetic 4x4 wagon unveiled; UK-based maker promises unrivalled off-road ability and LC70 pricing

www.carsales.com.au

View attachment 7902858

AWo

Oh @AWo you lovable mensch. Would that I had your trusting disposition!

But I don't.

All kidding aside, my experience has led me to be forever suspicious when executives speak. This isn't meant as an insult to Mr. Heilmann, Ms. Calder, or Sir Jim as I don't know any of the three personally. It's simply that I have rarely been rewarded by believing anything that comes out of the mouth of someone sitting behind a mahogany desk - especially if their banter is PR oriented and delivered as official. Therefore I have adopted the following maxim...

Actions speak louder than words.

The point I was trying to make is that Ineos representatives may have professed any number of markets as important to the success of their venture (what company spokesman would ever say that a particular market was unimportant?) but their actions - vis-a-vis North America and the US dealership numbers and locations specifically - indicate otherwise. In the beginning the US, with a population of 340 million people (plus 40 million in CA), was allotted only 20 dealerships with zero service centers (other than the mysterious allusion to one in Sacramento where an aftersales office was to be headquartered). By comparison the UK, with a population of only 70 million, initially had 19 dedicated sales locations (26 with service enters included). While I couldn't easily locate the number of dealerships in either the EU or AU, I think the numbers above indicate that the US was not originally envisioned as the primary market.

And now we see that the thinking has changed and IA has pivoted exactly as any dynamic and responsive business should. Dealerships, either wholesale or of the agency type, are closing in the UK, the EU, and AU while the number of dealerships in NA - and the US in particular - are on the rise with 41 projected to be operating by the end of 2025. Greg Clarke's early delight with the high reservation numbers that prompted him to contemplate closing US reservations in early/mid 2023 as well as the (possibly) truthful candid admission by Lynn Calder that you cited above bear out how unprepared they were for US demand for the Grenadier. At least to me they do.

 

[AWo]

@255/85 Hihihi...I'm absolutely with you. I don't believe them, because I know Ineos too well.

I just wanted to show (again) how Ineos statements differ from reality.

They started completely with wrong assumptions in numbers, sales, potential and also with the price. I'm allowed to recall: it should start with around 40k and a rich service network. End 2022 it was 54k, today we're around 80k and the service network you know. What about the promised service manuals?

In my oppinion they weren't prepared for the low sales numbers. There is a reason why the chemical business had to fund them heavily, why the Fusilier was abandoned, why they turned away from Magna, looking for cheap supply and partners in China, why they changed to the classic dealer model. And why there is no real progress in getting the flaws fixed and why there are already around 1,000 employes left IA. The good and experienced people from the automotive industry are long gone.

I think, you get a feling about how much I trust them. Also as an answer why I decided to buy a Hilux and not a Quartermaster....

Trust.

AWo

 

[Rayzar]

Spoke to the Perth dealer the other day and to my surprise I was told I could have the car serviced at any service centre as its Australian consumer law, so long as all the fluids are as per manufacturers specs. Now that interesting as thought I had to take it to a dealer only for servicing. This changes things when on the road and needing a service only. Obviously anything else is dealer committed but I'm ok with that. Anyone else been told this or know if this is consumer law? Also this is where the manual would be helpful to give the service centre the correct fluid specs and how to do a complete service correctly so the service log book can be filled out correctly. Only issue I have is if an independent service was done and they stuffed up causing a mechanical failure would INEOS still stand by the warranty. So the way I see it is how hard is it for INEOS to appoint some service agents in every town up our vast country if consumer law allows it anyway. Went for another road test in a LC300 the other day and it just felt like an over priced SUV with cheap plastic. It just doesn't compare to my 80 series and now 100 series turbo diesel. I just wish INEOS could make the decision easier with a purchase with more dealer back-up, service centres and some understanding of parts inventory here in Australia as I'm willing to pay the dollars for a great looking solid beast of a car more than capable, vehicle. I have my build ready for purchase in my profile. Also had a talk to GrenX and are excited to get some of there accessories fitted. PS have also been told JMAX aren't far away from a GVM upgrade kit announcement here in WA.

 

[Znarfgh]

Spoke to the Perth dealer the other day and to my surprise I was told I could have the car serviced at any service centre as its Australian consumer law, so long as all the fluids are as per manufacturers specs. Now that interesting as thought I had to take it to a dealer only for servicing. This changes things when on the road and needing a service only. Obviously anything else is dealer committed but I'm ok with that. Anyone else been told this or know if this is consumer law? Also this is where the manual would be helpful to give the service centre the correct fluid specs and how to do a complete service correctly so the service log book can be filled out correctly. Only issue I have is if an independent service was done and they stuffed up causing a mechanical failure would INEOS still stand by the warranty. So the way I see it is how hard is it for INEOS to appoint some service agents in every town up our vast country if consumer law allows it anyway. Went for another road test in a LC300 the other day and it just felt like an over priced SUV with cheap plastic. It just doesn't compare to my 80 series and now 100 series turbo diesel. I just wish INEOS could make the decision easier with a purchase with more dealer back-up, service centres and some understanding of parts inventory here in Australia as I'm willing to pay the dollars for a great looking solid beast of a car more than capable, vehicle. I have my build ready for purchase in my profile. Also had a talk to GrenX and are excited to get some of there accessories fitted. PS have also been told JMAX aren't far away from a GVM upgrade kit announcement here in WA.

You may be able to get it serviced at any service centre but they can't reset the service reminder without access to Ineos software.

 

[Rayzar]

You may be able to get it serviced at any service centre but they can't reset the service reminder without access to Ineos software.

Good point, I never thought of mentioning that to the dealer. Is the reminder something that can be comfortably ignored for a month or two until getting into a dealer.