So where are all the first impressions? (right here)

[Hannes01]

This ladderengine lost the rear axle while driving through the flooded city of Geilenkirchen:

youtube-link

So always try to avoid driving flooded areas unless really necessary.

a..hole driver!
look at the waves going in the windows!

 

[Cheshire cat]

I took my Grenadier for it's first run off-tarmac yesterday. Nothing very challenging, just the Kiwi road in Taranaki (New Zealand North Island) but this car really feels at home on gravel roads with mixed ruts. The Grenadier suspension and steering really comes into it's own on this terrain. I've done this road before in my FJ cruiser, but the Grenadier was altogether more composed/relaxed. Steering feels really great off road. Looking forward to getting into more challenging terrain over the next few months.

My experience of yesterday, going off road in a very wet field was not as expected. Drove onto field in order to check all three difflocks worked. Good news was yes, they all worked. Bad news, sank up to axles in soft mud. Three hours of hard work in extracting myself. One mudguard ripped off but otherwise, all seems OK.

 

[rovie]

My experience of yesterday, going off road in a very wet field was not as expected. Drove onto field in order to check all three difflocks worked. Good news was yes, they all worked. Bad news, sank up to axles in soft mud. Three hours of hard work in extracting myself. One mudguard ripped off but otherwise, all seems OK.

I can understand that very well. There are situations where even differential locks won't help you. Only the John Deere helped me back then.

 

[ECrider]

I can understand that very well. There are situations where even differential locks won't help you. Only the John Deere helped me back then.

Indeed. Out Friday and yesterday where the diff helped out a bit

 

[stickshifter]

Ahh, getting stuck is part of the game Good to hear that the Gren suffered no damage. Its a tough vehicle.

Obviously, a MT tire would have been much better than the AT tires, but the other piece is that a taller tire would have been really beneficial. Depends on how deep the mud was, but a taller tire might have kept your axles clear. Jeep doesn't get everything right - that's for sure - but I appreciate how they design the Wrangler with regard to tire size; you can buy it from the factory on 31s, 33s, or 35s. Each tire-size comes with full clearance (no rubbing), proper suspension geometry, proper gear ratios in the axles (3.73, 4.10, and 4.56), and a full-size spare mounted in the stock location. But this is what happened when I first argued that the Grenadier should have been engineered in such a way that adding taller tires would be easier

 

[Jeremy996]

Ahh, getting stuck is part of the game Good to hear that the Gren suffered no damage. Its a tough vehicle.

Obviously, a MT tire would have been much better than the AT tires, but the other piece is that a taller tire would have been really beneficial. Depends on how deep the mud was, but a taller tire might have kept your axles clear. Jeep doesn't get everything right - that's for sure - but I appreciate how they design the Wrangler with regard to tire size; you can buy it from the factory on 31s, 33s, or 35s. Each tire-size comes with full clearance (no rubbing), proper suspension geometry, proper gear ratios in the axles (3.73, 4.10, and 4.56), and a full-size spare mounted in the stock location. But this is what happened when I first argued that the Grenadier should have been engineered in such a way that adding taller tires would be easier

View attachment 7832061

You were getting shot at because if it were standard or an official option it would have to the type approved. Each variation has to be tested and the test load, (time, labour, cost), would break the company! Jeep sell thousands of Wranglers, Ineos would barely sell dozens in the more extreme set ups, so the cost would make even billionaires blanche.

The bigger tyres and more extreme gear ratios would also mangle the fuel mileage, which in Europe, is a really bad idea. IA are already exploiting loop-holes to avoid additional taxes for being gas guzzlers. The fact that IA built it at all is astonishing, trying to be all things to all men would be the final straw!

 

[255/85]

You were getting shot at because if it were standard or an official option it would have to the type approved. Each variation has to be tested and the test load, (time, labour, cost), would break the company! Jeep sell thousands of Wranglers, Ineos would barely sell dozens in the more extreme set ups, so the cost would make even billionaires blanche.

The bigger tyres and more extreme gear ratios would also mangle the fuel mileage, which in Europe, is a really bad idea. IA are already exploiting loop-holes to avoid additional taxes for being gas guzzlers. The fact that IA built it at all is astonishing, trying to be all things to all men would be the final straw!

Wow, take that!

 

[James]

You were getting shot at because if it were standard or an official option it would have to the type approved. Each variation has to be tested and the test load, (time, labour, cost), would break the company! Jeep sell thousands of Wranglers, Ineos would barely sell dozens in the more extreme set ups, so the cost would make even billionaires blanche.

The bigger tyres and more extreme gear ratios would also mangle the fuel mileage, which in Europe, is a really bad idea. IA are already exploiting loop-holes to avoid additional taxes for being gas guzzlers. The fact that IA built it at all is astonishing, trying to be all things to all men would be the final straw!

Really helpful, thoughtful explanation. Hopefully no one could feel they were being shot down with a factual response, thank you!

 

[Cheshire cat]

I can understand that very well. There are situations where even differential locks won't help you. Only the John Deere helped me back then.

Busy researching a pair of good mud matts. My mistake was going completely unprepared. Lowering tyre pressures, a spade and some scaffold planks got me out in the end.

 

[rovie]

Busy researching a pair of good mud matts. My mistake was going completely unprepared. Lowering tyre pressures, a spade and some scaffold planks got me out in the end.

I've often felt the same way. I always want to see how far I can get. Once I got stuck in a wet meadow with the Defender, just like in your photo. I then fetched a friend with his big Fendt. And he also dug himself into the meadow when he tried to pull me out. Then we had to use the Caterpillar wheel loader.

 

[Jeremy996]

Wow, take that!

View attachment 7832078

Merely a flesh wound!

 

[Max]

Have you checked your tyres - mine are made in USA.

I just checked and the ones I bought here are made by the parent company Michelin in Thailand of all places and even more interesting is to see who they supply to[below]but most BFG are out of USA so they must supply to the European market...I just assumed being Michelin and being French...



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BF Goodrich is relocating its production facility to Thailand to get closer to its market, the company said in a press release issued on Friday.​

Ekachai Kahakarnbamrung, director of B2C business of Siam Michelin, said: “Starting in January 2019, Michelin’s Laem Chabang plant will also start producing BF Goodrich tyres, particularly the popular all-terrain tyres, for sale in Thailand as well as export to nearby markets such as Africa, Middle East, Asia and Oceania.”
The tyres will also be supplied to automakers such as Ford, GM, Isuzu, Mazda and Toyota.
The BF Goodrich tyres will be sold at Tyreplus outlets and 158 Michelin dealers, he added.

 

[RobP]

I finally was able to drive the Grenadier on pavement during my dealer test drive yesterday. I did one of the off road events in March and it was great, but almost all of my driving will be on road. I'm planning to make this my daily driver replacing my current '23 Defender 110. First impressions are that it's built like a tank and it's taller than I remember. The exterior and interior styling look even better in person and I assume every owner will end up getting asked lots of questions about it. The test car was an inky black Fieldmaster on 18's with the Bridgestone tires. I went with a friend who also has a pre-order and we were able to spend around 90 minutes with it including driving both local roads and the highway. We were told to take as much time as we needed. It felt really solid with *almost no squeaks or rattles. The only noise issue was the driver sunroof that made a constant squeak while driving. It sounded like glass rubbing against styrofoam and went away as soon as it was latched. The sunroofs really open up the cabin and look very unique. I'm glad I ordered them on mine but I understand that not everyone is willing to deal with the possibility of squeaks & leaks. This car had the optional drivers leather pack and the steering wheel leather felt REALLY nice. I didn't order it on mine just because I don't care for the contrast but it feels amazing. The first thing I noticed when I climbed in was how high the steering wheel is (for my taste) and the lack of range to move it lower. I didn't remember this from my off road test drive and I ended up moving the seat much higher than I normally would. The front and side views are expansive and it's easy to see the front corners. The rear view mirror is another story. The split tailgate ends up being an enormous blind spot. I think I'll end up using a new rear view mirror with a camera mounted in the back to alleviate this. Now to the steering. It's different, as almost everyone agrees. The dealer said this is has been the most common comment from the test drives. The steering itself is quite heavy (compared to my Defender and Wrangler and my friend's LC100) and the lack of centering takes a bit to get used to. The turning radius is apparent as soon as you make your first turn and you under rotate and end up going wide. It happened to both of us even though we were aware of it. By the end of the test drive we were both used to it. I imagine the turning radius will only be an issue in some parking situations but otherwise it's OK. The turning radius and lack of centering is not ideal for my daily driving but it'll work and I'm sure I'll get used to it. I understand that the Grenadier was designed with off-roading in mind first so I get it. The car itself is pretty quiet while driving up to around 65 mph and then the wind noise picks up considerably (considering how quiet it is up to that point). It felt solid on the highway but you do have to correct the steering often, although not as much as a 4 door JL Wrangler. Rear seat room is adequate and sits very high giving a commanding view from the rear. The center screen had quite a bit of glare at times but I had zero issues seeing the speedometer and have no issue with the off center placement. I connected my android phone via bluetooth as I wanted to test out the premium sound system. It seems that the dealer demos don't have it (according to my dealer and my ears) and we couldn't find a subwoofer. I didn't look under the front seats but it wasn't under the rear seats or the cargo area. I'm sure someone here knows where it supposed to be. The flag plaques on the dealer demo were missing on both sides and we were told that they came off at some point during highway driving. The demo had the optional side steps and they were useless for me to get out. They worked to get in, but I couldn't even see them when I opened the door to get out. They're really close to the frame and I could only get a heel on them stepping out. Otherwise I just slid out gracefully . I didn't care for the look of them anyway and didn't order them, I'll go aftermarket. It's too bad there isn't a grab handle on the drivers side, the one on the passenger side it great. Overall the test drive only got me more excited about it and I can't wait to take delivery.
The dealer said both of our pre-orders are scheduled for March '24 delivery (we ordered at the same time in May '22)

 

[stickshifter]

You were getting shot at because if it were standard or an official option it would have to the type approved. Each variation has to be tested and the test load, (time, labour, cost), would break the company! Jeep sell thousands of Wranglers, Ineos would barely sell dozens in the more extreme set ups, so the cost would make even billionaires blanche.

The bigger tyres and more extreme gear ratios would also mangle the fuel mileage, which in Europe, is a really bad idea. IA are already exploiting loop-holes to avoid additional taxes for being gas guzzlers. The fact that IA built it at all is astonishing, trying to be all things to all men would be the final straw!

Maybe you didn't read all the way through to the last sentence: "But this is what happened when I first argued that the Grenadier should have been engineered in such a way that adding taller tires would be easier." I didn't say that Ineos should offer taller tires, I argued that they should have engineered the Grenadier so that adding taller tires would be easier - for those of us who might want to.

 

[Cheshire cat]

Maybe you didn't read all the way through to the last sentence: "But this is what happened when I first argued that the Grenadier should have been engineered in such a way that adding taller tires would be easier." I didn't say that Ineos should offer taller tires, I argued that they should have engineered the Grenadier so that adding taller tires would be easier - for those of us who might want to.

Hi Stickshifter
If I am correct, you can go a little taller with the tyres. Perhaps not as big as you would wish but still, taller than stock.

 

[Jeremy996]

Maybe you didn't read all the way through to the last sentence: "But this is what happened when I first argued that the Grenadier should have been engineered in such a way that adding taller tires would be easier." I didn't say that Ineos should offer taller tires, I argued that they should have engineered the Grenadier so that adding taller tires would be easier - for those of us who might want to.

All vehicles are a series of compromises; Ineos picked one that suits some and not others. Being live axled solves many of the issues for taller tyres for modders, but there will still be engineering limits and cost constraints. The current vehicle is 250kg overweight, (based on original targets), so they did not manage to solve all their problems in the time available.

 

[AnD3rew]

Hi Stickshifter
If I am correct, you can go a little taller with the tyres. Perhaps not as big as you would wish but still, taller than stock.

34” or just under would be the maximum tyre size increase legally allowed here with engineering certification and I get the impression that depending on width that’s probably doable for the Grenadier without modifications so for us at least, it probably would have been pointless to go to the extra effort for INEOS.

 

[255/85]

Merely a flesh wound!

What? His leg's off!

Maybe you didn't read all the way through to the last sentence: "But this is what happened when I first argued that the Grenadier should have been engineered in such a way that adding taller tires would be easier." I didn't say that Ineos should offer taller tires, I argued that they should have engineered the Grenadier so that adding taller tires would be easier - for those of us who might want to.

Now you're just bleeding on everybody.

Just kidding.
I understand your desire to keep chassis weight low to the ground but still gain ground clearance, etc by fitting taller rubber without a lift. I originally thought the same as you but eventually came to the conclusion that IA care very little about running 35" or larger tires or running hard core trails in the U.S. They've even said that that wasn't their aim. I strongly doubt facilitating "hard core" tire sizes was ever even a starter for Sir Jim beyond some early brainstorming sessions. But that's not the only reason they didn't pursue a Jeep-like option.

One of the three main requirements of the Grenadier's design was "good looks". Jeep offers monotone colored models now in an attempt to appear as a cohesive design, but they're just painting over cheap plastic fenders - especially the fronts. Jeep fenders are disposable and look like a bit of an afterthought. I don't think there's been any metal in them since '06 but I could be wrong there. But that's partially how Jeep can have affordable variations to allow 35+" tires straight off the showroom floor. (I don't know if Jeep frames vary between base and upper spec models.) By comparison the Grenadier has a well defined body shape and aesthetic. There's a very specific relationship between the height, width, and elevation of the fenders' design. Giant swappable fender flares on the Grenadier would likely have resulted in that same wonky out-of-balance look that the Jeep Wrangler line up has.

With looking the part so very important to IA, and regardless of where the courts stand on the similarity of design between an original Defender and the Grenadier, it can't be denied that there was also a deliberate attempt to retain the waterfall front end seen on old Land Rovers (and elsewhere). I'm not confident that that could have been accomplished satisfactorily with huge wheel openings and some kind of modular fender flare. In the end the designer(s) simply had to please Customer Number One.

Now it's time for the aftermarket to step in and fulfill the requirements of the various niche markets. Hit me up when you have some cheap take-off wings for sale.

 

[James]

What? His leg's off!


.

I think you’ve hit on a key idea here; rock crawling is not really a part of the niche that they identified in designing this car. Not in the sense that it happens in the US. There’s a mid-point where you are still going somewhere, not just out to challenge the car you have built in a park like you guys have.
that market is so specialist, and so well served with Jeep, other mainstreams, and all the aftermarket stuff associated with what breaks off. It would be a difficult market, a nightmare for low volumes, and warranty too perhaps.

They have gone for room to do lots of mods that are more associated with working vehicles (farms, mines, reserves, prospecting, aid, charity, on and on, this is a big category with lots of diversity), overlanding, and general rough country touring. so there is some overlap with some desires that US style offroading might have, but it is not ‘what it’s about’.

that wont necessarily stop people hacking away at them anyway, (have fun, why not?!) but it does mean engineering for 35 or 37 wheels didn’t impose a pile of compromises on everyone that very few will need.

the suspension is SO VERY GOOD I for one am grateful they went i n the direction they did.
if you really want the technical heavy duty stuff, guys the Jeep really is an untouchable platform for that stuff - you already have it. And its cheap as chips. Count your blessings!

 

[FlyingTexan]

My experience of yesterday, going off road in a very wet field was not as expected. Drove onto field in order to check all three difflocks worked. Good news was yes, they all worked. Bad news, sank up to axles in soft mud. Three hours of hard work in extracting myself. One mudguard ripped off but otherwise, all seems OK.

Doesn't look that bad. Have to deflate the tires and keep the hammer down when mudding. You need the tires to throw it from the grooves.