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Prototype Review - Jonathan Hanson

Shorty

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DaveB

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A really well written and thought out review and I particularly like his conclution.
The only thing I disagree with him on is the location of the locker switches and the need to find them in an emergency
You should engage gears, ratios and lockers before you need them not when or after you need them.
Look at the track ahead, assess it, select a line and then set the vehicle up to suit.

1673154365022.png
 

Max

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A really well written and thought out review and I particularly like his conclution.
The only thing I disagree with him on is the location of the locker switches and the need to find them in an emergency
You should engage gears, ratios and lockers before you need them not when or after you need them.
Look at the track ahead, assess it, select a line and then set the vehicle up to suit.

View attachment 7799787
Completely agree with you on approach not when you are in strife you start to look for switches but after usage you will know where they with short notice and that last para sums it up for me…good write up.
 

To

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The old Defender and the Grenadier are not comparable in terms of chassis. In the article it is well shown that the chassis of the Gren does not twist. The chassis of the Defender is the opposite. This is also a good thing, as it allows him to guide his wheels with better ground contact. But I'm always afraid that the Defender will break apart on me one day. I no longer have to have that fear with the Gren.
 

grenadierboy

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Like my 60s Benzes , the feeling I get is the car is over engineered.
When was that ever bad?
over engineering can lead to weight issues.

My 1968 Benz & 1966 Porsche are both 2 seaters of roughly the same size (length and width). The Porsche weighs 1050kg the MB 1440kg.

Where the Porsche might have 4 screws holding something on/together, the Merc has 8 thicker ones.

I am convinced INEOS will make an "light" off road version in a 5 years weighing 400KG less
 

Tazzieman

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over engineering can lead to weight issues.

My 1968 Benz & 1966 Porsche are both 2 seaters of roughly the same size (length and width). The Porsche weighs 1050kg the MB 1440kg.

Where the Porsche might have 4 screws holding something on/together, the Merc has 8 thicker ones.

I am convinced INEOS will make an "light" off road version in a 5 years weighing 400KG less
Carbon fibre comes at a price :p
Have you compared the weight of the Benz seat and the Porsche?
Have you got any back or hernia issues? :D I saved you 50 kg there!
 

DaveB

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over engineering can lead to weight issues.

My 1968 Benz & 1966 Porsche are both 2 seaters of roughly the same size (length and width). The Porsche weighs 1050kg the MB 1440kg.

Where the Porsche might have 4 screws holding something on/together, the Merc has 8 thicker ones.

I am convinced INEOS will make an "light" off road version in a 5 years weighing 400KG less
I agree with you
I am over engineered.
That's why I have weight issues.
I will go and explain it to my wife. :giggle: :giggle: :giggle: :giggle: :giggle: :giggle: :giggle: :giggle: :giggle: :giggle:
 

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Where the Porsche might have 4 screws holding something on/together, the Merc has 8 thicker ones.
I think my Lotus must have no screws ~ just a dab of glue. Simplify and add lightness as Colin Chapman is supposed to have said.

over engineering can lead to weight issues.
I think the boys at Böblingen have form on this.
Screenshot_20230108_110908.jpg
 

Tazzieman

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I think my Lotus must have no screws ~ just a dab of glue. Simplify and add lightness as Colin Chapman is supposed to have said.
Some guy has drilled thousands of holes in his entire 911 chassis to remove weight. It was obviously extreme OCD.
There's a hobby to suit every neurot out there!
 

emax

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That's an artwork of it's own.
 

stickshifter

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A really well written and thought out review and I particularly like his conclution.
The only thing I disagree with him on is the location of the locker switches and the need to find them in an emergency
You should engage gears, ratios and lockers before you need them not when or after you need them.
Look at the track ahead, assess it, select a line and then set the vehicle up to suit.

View attachment 7799787
This was a good review, and I enjoyed the read - thanks for posting!

I'll preface my comments by saying that my next vehicle is more likely a Grenadier than another Jeep, but I question two things in the review:

(1) I'm skeptical of the following statement: "Returning to the Jeep comparison, the Grenadier seemed to have at least as much compliance as a Rubicon Unlimited with the front anti-roll bar engaged—although not, of course, as much as one with the bar disengaged." I have two thoughts in response: (a) Based on the videos I have seen of the Grenadier, and a decade of ownership of a Jeep Wrangler Rubicon Unlimited (i.e. 4-door), I don't see the Grenadier flexing as much as a Wrangler - even with its anti-sway bar connected. (b) Even if what he is saying is true, it is irrelevant, because - with the Wrangler Rubicon - you can disconnect the anti-sway bar, giving you way more flex. I suggest that people stop speculating about wheel travel, and let's put the Grenadier on the ramp, and measure suspension flex objectively, using the Ramp Travel Index (RTI). There is no need for speculation when there is a simple and objective test.

(2) You highlighted something he wrote: "The first owner to install a four-inch lift and 35-inch tires will be missing the point as far as I’m concerned." Well, the very first owner already has put the vehicle on 35s - and that was Sir Jim Ratcliffe! He was driving a prototype Grenadier around Iceland on 35s a year ago. Is he missing the point of the vehicle that he designed and built? That makes absolutely no sense :p

Grenadier in Iceland on 35s, about one year ago. Purportedly driven by Sir Jim himself:
Grenadier_18_35s_Iceland.jpg
Grenadier_19_35s_Iceland.jpg
 

Jonathan Hanson

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Many thanks to Shorty for linking to the article. A couple of comments on subsequent posts:

I agree that the ideal time to engage lockers is in advance of the difficult spot. Perhaps, unlike me, you've never misjudged the spot and had to do so quickly. I don't think it should be as time-consuming to do so as it is in the Grenadier.

On the comparison of compliance: I made it clear I was going on impressions and my photos. Those impressions were based, in large part, on a 30,000-mile long-term review I did of a Wrangler Rubicon Unlimited some years ago, and on several shorter-term reviews since. Some future RTI test might confirm or deny those impressions, but I stick by them, especially concerning ride quality.

Regarding 35-inch tires: Touché! However, Iceland is a bit of a special case as we know. Thirty-five-inch tires are pretty conservative in that terrain. I still don't recommend them for exploring most of the rest of the planet . . .

I was genuinely impressed with virtually everything about the Grenadier.
 

Krabby

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Many thanks to Shorty for linking to the article. A couple of comments on subsequent posts:

I agree that the ideal time to engage lockers is in advance of the difficult spot. Perhaps, unlike me, you've never misjudged the spot and had to do so quickly. I don't think it should be as time-consuming to do so as it is in the Grenadier.

On the comparison of compliance: I made it clear I was going on impressions and my photos. Those impressions were based, in large part, on a 30,000-mile long-term review I did of a Wrangler Rubicon Unlimited some years ago, and on several shorter-term reviews since. Some future RTI test might confirm or deny those impressions, but I stick by them, especially concerning ride quality.

Regarding 35-inch tires: Touché! However, Iceland is a bit of a special case as we know. Thirty-five-inch tires are pretty conservative in that terrain. I still don't recommend them for exploring most of the rest of the planet . . .

I was genuinely impressed with virtually everything about the Grenadier.
Hi Jonathan - don’t feel pressured to defend yourself in anyway. It was a well-written piece that expressed your take on the vehicle. It seems to me that you’re among the most qualified here in that you’ve probably had more seat time than anyone. I fall into the category of having never actually a Gren so who am I challenge your views.?
 

stickshifter

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I'll repeat what I said in my first post - I think it was a great review, and I really enjoyed reading it. I'm excited about the Grenadier, and I think it looks like it is going to be a vehicle that - in terms of production quality and durability - will be vastly superior to the Wrangler. But when it comes to flex, the Wrangler is best in class. In the photos below, the Grenadier is lifting its front right tire - there is very little droop; look at the angle of the front axle. In the photo below that, the front right tire of the Wrangler is still touching the ground (which is what you want) despite the incredible angle of the front axle. Yes, the anti-sway bar is certainly disconnected on the Jeep, but the difference is enormous. Can't wait until we get some good objective test results like the Ramp Travel Index (RTI).

Grenadier_20_articulation.jpg
jeep_flex.jpg
NOTE: given that both vehicles run solid axles front and rear, and both run coil springs front and rear, it cannot be possible for one vehicle to have twice the payload of the other, and still flex the same. The engineers at Ineos chose to go for high payload (almost 2,000 pounds), and to do that they sacrificed some flex. The engineers at Jeep chose to go for massive flex, and to do that they sacrificed payload (about 875 pounds in the Rubicon). Neither choice is objectively good or bad. Buyers should purchase the vehicle that meets their needs.

Lastly, I didn't mean to come off as rude or argumentative in my previous post (or in this one). Debating technical attributes of a vehicle is really why we are here, and that is the spirit in which I am writing.

All the best!
 
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DCPU

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@Jonathan Hanson - nice to see you replying to the comments. 👏

The point with regard to the lockers has been raised before, in terms of generally looking up at all the switches and trying to read the icons. It's a real issue, especially for anyone with varifocals and we know the Grenadier demographic is going to contain a high percentage. So there might be some challenge here but perhaps a silent majority nodding?
 

DaveB

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I'll repeat what I said in my first post - I think it was a great review, and I really enjoyed reading it. I'm excited about the Grenadier, and I think it looks like it is going to be a vehicle that - in terms of production quality and durability - will be vastly superior to the Wrangler. But when it comes to flex, the Wrangler is best in class. In the photos below, the Grenadier is lifting its front right tire - there is very little droop; look at the angle of the front axle. In the photo below that, the front right tire of the Wrangler is still touching the ground (which is what you want) despite the incredible angle of the front axle. Yes, the anti-sway bar is certainly disconnected on the Jeep, but the difference is enormous. Can't wait until we get some good objective test results like the Ramp Travel Index (RTI).

NOTE: given that both vehicles run solid axles front and rear, and both run coil springs front and rear, it cannot be possible for one vehicle to have twice the payload of the other, and still flex the same. The engineers at Ineos chose to go for high payload (almost 2,000 pounds), and to do that they sacrificed some flex. The engineers at Jeep chose to go for massive flex, and to do that they sacrificed payload (about 875 pounds in the Rubicon). Neither choice is objectively good or bad. Buyers should purchase the vehicle that meets their needs.

View attachment 7799827
View attachment 7799828
Until recently I had never heard of a disconnecting sway bar and it certainly helps with the flex.
This is obviously an extreme demonstration and useful in rock climbing that seems so popular in the US.
Not sure how long that rear flair would last if the vehicle was actually moving rather than jacked up
 
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