Power steering noise

[Eric.S.]

Hello everyone I was finally able to pick up my grenadier yesterday Unfortunately, I noticed at home that my power steering makes a strange noise. I think it's not a normal noise, or? The filling level in the container was at maximum with the engine warm but switched off. The German instructions do not say exactly in which condition the oil should be checked. Does anyone have an idea? I tried to post a video but I always see the file is too big (7mb)
Thank you

 

[Skydance]

Pressure is defined by the relief valve.

I agree but I don’t think anyone has adjusted it nor has the dealer. There was talk about Agile producing a aftermarket valve sometime ago.

I just found my way much easier. I think the calculation of the reservoir (expansion tank) hasn’t been designed big enough. You fill it upto max and I guarantee it leaks out of the cap through the pin hole and there is nothing wrong with the cap or seal.

 

[SMarshall]

I agree but I don’t think anyone has adjusted it nor has the dealer. There was talk about Agile producing a aftermarket valve sometime ago.

I just found my way much easier. I think the calculation of the reservoir (expansion tank) hasn’t been designed big enough. You fill it upto max and I guarantee it leaks out of the cap through the pin hole and there is nothing wrong with the cap or seal.

That very well could be. And it's my speculation at this point that is the case. That being said I have some further testing to do to prove this theory. I have also acquired a service manual for the Bosch/ZF steering system from a German colleague. It's for a specialty commercial vehicle but the pump and steering box look to be exactly same. It has a flow and pressure specifications including test procedures. And to clarify my comment prior the relief valve determines maximum pressure (while on the steering stops) otherwise the system is operating at system pressure that is regulated via a flow modulation valve. At this point I have no reason to believe there is any pressure or flow issues, simply a capacity issue. I suspect this is due to varying capacity requirements of the steering box in input vs no input phases. But I will dig out the pressure and flow gauges and report back. I am also going to mount a temporary tank level sensor in the reservoir to monitor actual levels in various conditions.

 

[Skydance]

That very well could be. And it's my speculation at this point that is the case. That being said I have some further testing to do to prove this theory. I have also acquired a service manual for the Bosch/ZF steering system from a German colleague. It's for a specialty commercial vehicle but the pump and steering box look to be exactly same. It has a flow and pressure specifications including test procedures. And to clarify my comment prior the relief valve determines maximum pressure (while on the steering stops) otherwise the system is operating at system pressure that is regulated via a flow modulation valve. At this point I have no reason to believe there is any pressure or flow issues, simply a capacity issue. I suspect this is due to varying capacity requirements of the steering box in input vs no input phases. But I will dig out the pressure and flow gauges and report back. I am also going to mount a temporary tank level sensor in the reservoir to monitor actual levels in various conditions.

I believe the electo hydraulic pump is called Dare (Chinese brand) not Bosch but I’m interested in your findings.

 

[SMarshall]

I believe the electo hydraulic pump is called Dare (Chinese brand) not Bosch but I’m interested in your findings.

What scares me, is that if this is a capacity issue, it's also a cavitation issue (potentially if the theory pans out) and in my experience that means people that have had the "whine/noise" for longer periods of time, well more oil may not fix it...

 

[Skydance]

What scares me, is that if this is a capacity issue, it's also a cavitation issue (potentially if the theory pans out) and in my experience that means people that have had the "whine/noise" for longer periods of time, well more oil may not fix it...

Electronic Hydraulic Power Steering Pump Assembly-DARE AUTO

Electronic Hydraulic Power Steering Pump Assembly DARE AUTO is a leading electric hydraulic power steering (EHPS) pump manufacturer in China, mainly supplying automotive OEMs globally. EHPS pump is composed of oil pump, motor, controller, bracket and other parts. DARE is able to design the pump...

www.darepump.com

Similar or same as the Ineos. See what you can make of it.

 

[SMarshall]

Electronic Hydraulic Power Steering Pump Assembly-DARE AUTO

Electronic Hydraulic Power Steering Pump Assembly DARE AUTO is a leading electric hydraulic power steering (EHPS) pump manufacturer in China, mainly supplying automotive OEMs globally. EHPS pump is composed of oil pump, motor, controller, bracket and other parts. DARE is able to design the pump...

www.darepump.com

Similar or same as the Ineos. See what you can make of it.

Cheers. I enjoy a challenge . And moreso making engineers look like wankers but that's a side note

 

[SMarshall]

If this is the pump used then I have to retract my statement on the modulation valve. It could be a PWM feed back valve. I hope not but could be.

 

[Shopkeep]

That very well could be. And it's my speculation at this point that is the case. That being said I have some further testing to do to prove this theory. I have also acquired a service manual for the Bosch/ZF steering system from a German colleague. It's for a specialty commercial vehicle but the pump and steering box look to be exactly same. It has a flow and pressure specifications including test procedures. And to clarify my comment prior the relief valve determines maximum pressure (while on the steering stops) otherwise the system is operating at system pressure that is regulated via a flow modulation valve. At this point I have no reason to believe there is any pressure or flow issues, simply a capacity issue. I suspect this is due to varying capacity requirements of the steering box in input vs no input phases. But I will dig out the pressure and flow gauges and report back. I am also going to mount a temporary tank level sensor in the reservoir to monitor actual levels in various conditions.

Have you seen this post and others around it regarding the valves on the PS pump?
Post in thread 'Power steering noise'
https://www.theineosforum.com/threads/power-steering-noise.12412423/post-1333342891

 

[NQ94]

That very well could be. And it's my speculation at this point that is the case. That being said I have some further testing to do to prove this theory. I have also acquired a service manual for the Bosch/ZF steering system from a German colleague. It's for a specialty commercial vehicle but the pump and steering box look to be exactly same. It has a flow and pressure specifications including test procedures. And to clarify my comment prior the relief valve determines maximum pressure (while on the steering stops) otherwise the system is operating at system pressure that is regulated via a flow modulation valve. At this point I have no reason to believe there is any pressure or flow issues, simply a capacity issue. I suspect this is due to varying capacity requirements of the steering box in input vs no input phases. But I will dig out the pressure and flow gauges and report back. I am also going to mount a temporary tank level sensor in the reservoir to monitor actual levels in various conditions.

May need to put a spacer, a washer on the steering stops to check the relief pressure. This had to be done on truck ZF steer gear to correctly check and set pressures.
Trying to find tech info on the pump is difficult but to my understanding the electronics control the motor via PWM and controlling motor speed is controlling flow and pressure.
The solution may be as simple as a better cooler for the return oil as this system is pretty much a closed loop and is not returning the oil back to the tank. The reservior only has a single line to the pump making it into what could be considered an expansion and make up tank. The circulating fluid temps in the pump are going to be hotter than at the reservior.
CHF fluids for steering are already very high quality synthetic hydraulic fluid so there is going to be very limited other choices if heat is the underlying issue causing the noise. The control electronics for the pump should be controlling temperature but it is likely the system is only monitoring motor temperature and not fluid temps.
If using a clear tube flow meter connecting in series in the steer box return line may show any aeration from the steering box.
Owners now have access to manuals, hopefully the manuals have steering operation and testing explained and answers can be found.

 

[Krabby]

 

[Krabby]

That video is from a 2024 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon 4Xe (my brother’s)

I’m sharing to show it’s not just us. Please don’t divert into a Jeeps suck or whatever discussion.

 

[Skydance]

That video is from a 2024 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon 4Xe (my brother’s)

That video is from a 2024 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon 4Xe (my brother’s)

Sounds exactly the same

 

[Logsplitter]

Strange how some have this noise and others not. I’ve never had this noise and my hydraulic fluid is filled up to max . I do have a weep from the cap though because of the amount of fluid in the tank.

 

[Skydance]

Strange how some have this noise and others not. I’ve never had this noise and my hydraulic fluid is filled up to max . I do have a weep from the cap though because of the amount of fluid in the tank.

It is very strange. You’re one of the lucky ones. I’ve gone around many Grenadier and they’re all like this but at different levels of noise.

 

[SMarshall]

That video is from a 2024 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon 4Xe (my brother’s)

I’m sharing to show it’s not just us. Please don’t divert into a Jeeps suck or whatever discussion.

https://parts.moparonlineparts.com/oem-parts/mopar-power-steering-pump-68630796aa?srsltid=AfmBOoot2PSdeK6ljG8wuka5uA1F9O5nWbi3oRi7oSuvdkF35yhC2JN2

Guess who makes those pumps also! Dare...

 

[SMarshall]

1. Steering Whine — Thread started Nov 5, 2018
   https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/steering‑whine.17910/
2. Power Steering High‑Pitched Noise? — Thread started Jan 14, 2021
   https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/power‑steering‑high‑pitched‑noise.64450/
3. EV Noises - Power Steering Pump? Help please... (4xe-specific but same system) — Thread started Apr 26, 2021
   https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/ev‑noises‑power‑steering‑pump‑help‑please.70895/
4. Steering Pump Noise — Thread started Jan 23, 2022
   https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/steering‑pump‑noise.86704/
5. Whining Noise Identification — Thread started May 28, 2022
   https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/whining‑noise‑identification.94700/
6. Power Steering Noise — Thread started Mar 28, 2023
   https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/power‑steering‑noise.111008/
7. Whining Sound – Rubicon ‘23 Extreme Recon Package — Thread started Jun 27, 2023
   https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/whining‑sound‑rubicon‑%E2%80%9823‑extreme‑recon‑package.115303/
8. Electric Steering Whine? — Thread started Nov 19, 2024
   https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/electric‑steering‑whine.139829/
9. A better Power Steering Pump. — Thread started Jul 10, 2023 (where user identifies pump as culprit of weird noises)
   https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/a‑better‑power‑steering‑pump.115889/

 

[ADVAW8S]

That video is from a 2024 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon 4Xe (my brother’s)

I’m sharing to show it’s not just us. Please don’t divert into a Jeeps suck or whatever discussion.

They not like us

 

[SMarshall]

May need to put a spacer, a washer on the steering stops to check the relief pressure. This had to be done on truck ZF steer gear to correctly check and set pressures.
Trying to find tech info on the pump is difficult but to my understanding the electronics control the motor via PWM and controlling motor speed is controlling flow and pressure.
The solution may be as simple as a better cooler for the return oil as this system is pretty much a closed loop and is not returning the oil back to the tank. The reservior only has a single line to the pump making it into what could be considered an expansion and make up tank. The circulating fluid temps in the pump are going to be hotter than at the reservior.
CHF fluids for steering are already very high quality synthetic hydraulic fluid so there is going to be very limited other choices if heat is the underlying issue causing the noise. The control electronics for the pump should be controlling temperature but it is likely the system is only monitoring motor temperature and not fluid temps.
If using a clear tube flow meter connecting in series in the steer box return line may show any aeration from the steering box.
Owners now have access to manuals, hopefully the manuals have steering operation and testing explained and answers can be found.

Yes, so this is correct, however there is more to the story. The Steering ECU receives feedback via can for wheel speed, wheel angle and run/stop. At zero speed with no steering input the pump runs very slow. With a steering input it speeds up and depending on the speed/angle combination it receives. It also has an internal releif valve that returns directly to the suction side of the pump. When fluid is low head pressure is essentially minimal as is pump suction due to low rpm. This of course is very different from an engine driven pump where rpms are always fairly high. Using AI to search the jeep forums there are lots of examples of fluid top eliminating the sound.

• “Steering Whine” (2018) – early JL thread
  
  

  “Mine started whining when the fluid was low. After topping it off, it went away.”
  Source: https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/steering-whine.17910/

• “Whining Noise Identification” (2022)
  
  

  “That whining is normal when the level is down near min. Top it off and it’s gone.”
  Source: https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/whining-noise-identification.94700/

• “Power Steering Noise” (2023)
  
  

  “It was loud at idle until I added fluid back up near the max line, now quiet again.”
  Source: https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/power-steering-noise.111008/

So this combined with the at least 5 reports of Grenadiers doing the same thing (mine included) means this is more than a coincidence in my opinion. In doing some research althoug not related I found on a BMW site people do this.

But what I found interesting is this, as I beleive this could be a possible solution. (I have no idea if that is the correct match for our reservoirs but it looks like they have quite a selection)

New Release: Future Classic E9X M3 Power Steering Extension Set

Simply put, form is an important consideration that cannot be ignored. It is the driving force behind one of the most important aspects of the aftermarket industry: emotion. Indeed, an enthusiast car itself has to be exciting, right? There is a lofty expectation for a car to wear that enthusiast...

ind-distribution.com

 

[Skydance]

Yes, so this is correct, however there is more to the story. The Steering ECU receives feedback via can for wheel speed, wheel angle and run/stop. At zero speed with no steering input the pump runs very slow. With a steering input it speeds up and depending on the speed/angle combination it receives. It also has an internal releif valve that returns directly to the suction side of the pump. When fluid is low head pressure is essentially minimal as is pump suction due to low rpm. This of course is very different from an engine driven pump where rpms are always fairly high. Using AI to search the jeep forums there are lots of examples of fluid top eliminating the sound.

• “Steering Whine” (2018) – early JL thread
  
  
• “Whining Noise Identification” (2022)
  
  
• “Power Steering Noise” (2023)
  

So this combined with the at least 5 reports of Grenadiers doing the same thing (mine included) means this is more than a coincidence in my opinion. In doing some research althoug not related I found on a BMW site people do this.
View attachment 7907859
But what I found interesting is this, as I beleive this could be a possible solution. (I have no idea if that is the correct match for our reservoirs but it looks like they have quite a selection)

New Release: Future Classic E9X M3 Power Steering Extension Set

Simply put, form is an important consideration that cannot be ignored. It is the driving force behind one of the most important aspects of the aftermarket industry: emotion. Indeed, an enthusiast car itself has to be exciting, right? There is a lofty expectation for a car to wear that enthusiast...

ind-distribution.com

View attachment 7907860

I think this will work as it allows bigger expansion of existing fluid levels.

Topping up to max or even slightly over (as noted in the Jeep forum previously) makes it worse. I’ve tried it especially in hot weather, It’s really whines.

Only solution is to leave the fluid at minimum like I have (I not have any cavitation issues as yet). Or buy a bigger reservoir like above. So basically is the same thing allowing more expansion room.