Land Rover feeling the Heat?

[vtgrenadier]

lt's good that there's a choice.

Indeed.

I have both and each serve a different function for me and my family in ways that no other two vehicles on the market can.

@Clark_Kent - The iphone/sat phone analogy fits. By extension, sometimes, I feel like using a pager (which is where my '91 Geo Tracker comes in) and sometimes I feel like going incommunicado (I have a 1983 Saab for that).

 

[mcdoogs]

I'd love to see JLR fully re-design the Discovery. I just don't know if it makes sense to JLR.

In hindsight, the new Defender is/was something of a brand saver for Land Rover. It's well designed inside and out (Toyota certainly thinks so). I mean it's objectively been a massive sales success. But it puts the Discovery in a super awkward place from a pricing perspective given that the Defender starts in the mid 50s with the S and has trims up to the Octa at ~167k. Can JLR design and build a new Discovery (or resurrect the Series moniker or something) profitably enough at a downmarket sales price from the Defender, without cannabilizing Defender sales?

I personally would love to see a new utilitarian 4x4 at ACTUAL 'proletariat tractor' pricing. Something like Toyota's 70-series. I just don't think it's possible to actually do it and sell it in the US economically, and I don't think JLR even wants to move downmarket at all.

 

[Zimm]

They have too many street suvs and no work truck. I see the Disco name taking a 15 year breather.

 

[FlyersFan76]

They have too many street suvs and no work truck. I see the Disco name taking a 15 year breather.

My wife was seriously considering the Disco but she didn't like the 5. We ended up with the 5 but only kept it for a year. Not big enough, etc.

I recently saw a Disco 4 and wow it still looks great. I wish they kept that design and just tweaked it for the 5 instead of starting fresh.

 

[pmatusov]

Interestingly, Discovery only sold 46,433 units, makes me wonder how long JLR will keep desperately flogging, what seems to be a dead horse of a model, before dropping it, not that it's a bad car, it's just that JLR have too many like it, that are more desirable, in their line-up.

LR4 was outsold in the U.S. by Range Rover Sport in nearly 10:1 proportion, so D4/LR4 are going to be rare. Mine taught me an obvious thing - capability does not mean or imply reliability.
My daughter bought a 19 D5, which I personally find boring as a minivan. It has all the quirks of D3/D4, but no curb appeal, +shitty SCV6 instead of a V8.
It seems that JLR is trying to make Discovery appearance making an impression of a Range Rover at a 1/8-mile glance, without the substance.

 

[AWo]

New car registrations January 20205, Germany:

JLR Defender: 310
JLR all: 1,222
Ineos Grenadier M1: 21

Ineos Grenadier UK: 11

AWo

 

[emax]

Lynn Calders Erfolgsbilanz?

"Ich werde im Vier-Wochen-Rythmus berichten" u. dgl. ?

 

[Shopkeep]

Passing through Narooma in NSW today, saw this sign on the outside of a local business.

 

[AWo]

JLR published the numbers for fiscal year 2024/25 (closed end of March). It was the best in 10 years, around €3 Billion EBITA. The most successful models were the New Defender (115,404 units) and the Range Rover Sport. +19,7% sales in comparison to 2023/24.

AWo

 

[Orcmurd]

JLR is a business and making money is its goal. Making a proper off road 4x4 is unlikely to boost JLR’s profits, so it is unlikely to build one.

Ineos is also a business hoping to make money but Sir Jim called the shots and pushed ahead with the Grenadier. Whether his personal vision turns a profit or ends up being a vanity project is yet to be seen.

The new Defender appeals to the masses as it provides the security of offering off road ability if ever required. It also has a very strong heritage. Few ND owners will ever leave the tarmac, much like those of us who wear an expensive dive watch but don’t dive.

I’m glad to see LR make a profit as it’s good for the car industry and wider economy.

 

[LabRat]

They knocked it out of the park with the Pretender. Great truck, no doubt and they hit what the market wanted, just not what the enthusiasts wanted.

 

[AWo]

In the end you only survive (and keep going on to serve the 4x4 community) if you earn money. Otherwise you might look very nice and you might have the most capable 4x4 in the universe, but you still die.

AWo

 

[Zimm]

The new defender doesn't have a pickup version, so lacks much of the previous utility, but as far the 90 and 110 are concerned, they may not be as capable as a modern dedicated 4x4 truck could be, but it is still more capable than what it replaced. Unless you're doing class 4 trails or moab'ish trails, it's going the same places as a grenadier, and being most gren buyers are not traveling those roads, LR did a better job than I initially thought.

The unit that's failing because its not "work truck" enough, isn't the new defender, it's the Grenadier. It's as if Ineos mistakenly thought the Defender was it's completion, veered away from its stated target market to try to capture some of the Defender market making it competition, and is now failing at that while having lost the buyers it would have had at a 15g cheaper truck price point.

 

[Max]

It's as if Ineos mistakenly thought the Defender was it's completion

There's a couple of Grenadier owners on here that I believe have still or have owned a new Defender and if not some of the above are thinking of swaping.

IMO I think that JLR lookers may have thought the Grenadier was Defenders competition, so wrong. I know we talk vehicle but I am talking mindset right now and maybe some just didn't do the big picture testing and research on the vehicle before the purchase.

The JLR Defender is for the modern mover and a lot will trade or re-lease in a few years. The Grenadier is such a different vehicle/mindset and is going to be in our hands a little longer than that from what I read, even with all the pros and cons that gain a lot of momentum on here.

 

[A R Dykes]

I just got a fancy brochure in the mail from Land Rover for the Defender. Timing a coincidence? Anyway, with IA just importing 5000 a year, I doubt LR thinks they are in much trouble.

Really they make between 100,000 and a 125,000 new Defenders, against 20,000 old Defenders on a good year which they lost money on.
The new Defender are the biggest success story ever for the brand.
Just saying

 

[lightning]

The Defender is a great vehicle (l've got a 2022 90 Commercial) but lacks the "spirit" of the old one. In the old one every drive felt like an adventure, even if it was just to a caravan park in the Lake District.
You would arrive feeling like you achieved something.
(l did 90,000 miles in my 2005 110 Station Wagon)
The new one is fabulous, and highly competent both on and off road. But the spirit of adventure is not there like it was with the old model.

99% of "owners" don't care about that, l
say owners they're all on PCP and chucked away like an old suit when the contract ends and the keys to a new one are waved in front of them.

The Grenadier isn't like that. lt's not got the heritage (yet) but it does have the spirit of adventure, without the compromises the old model had. Most owners will love their Grenadier and keep it, like the old Defender. And it will go off grid, where most new Defenders won't.

lt's good on road and while
there have been issues it's unlikely to actually break down.

l would swap my 2022 Defender for a Grenadier tomorrow if the figures worked out, but it starts at £65,000 which is out of my reach.

The one l really wanted, the 5-seat Utility sadly doesn't cut it as a Utility vehicle with HMRC.

 

[AWo]

If it runs according to the plan, it isn't called adventure.

We especially remember the problems solved, the imperfections and the lack of comfort and the reduced setup after coming home and after years. That is what you tell your friends and talk and laugh about at the camp fire....and then you start to plan the next journey...

So choose your car wisely...do you want the spirit of adventure or the adventure?



Cheers
AWo

 

[pmatusov]

So choose your car wisely...do you want the spirit of adventure or the adventure?

Exactly.

 

[tnkatoy]

Really they make between 100,000 and a 125,000 new Defenders, against 20,000 old Defenders on a good year which they lost money on.
The new Defender are the biggest success story ever for the brand.
Just saying

There have been a few comments that the Defender and Grenadier are different vehicles that serve different roles, which is very true. The Grenadier now serves the role of the old Defenders, while the new Defender is now in direct competition with the rest of the Land Rover/Range Rover products, so while the new defender has been successful, it has also come at the cost of other sales, especially Discovery.

The Defender is selling in the numbers it is because of the vehicle it is, which gives it much broader appeal than the old Defender, or even the Grenadier. The Defender branding does help a bit, but it's mainly the vehicle that has the appeal, so it could easily still have sold as strongly if wore the Discovery badge.

JLR would then have had the room to have updated the Defender to be more faithful and in keeping with its legacy (like the G'Wagon), not only maintaining, but building on the market that Ineos has now moved into, because JLR left a vacuum that Ineos has filled.

The old Defender may not have been selling in large numbers, but it kept JLR in a market that defined the essence of what a Land Rover is, a market that underpinned the legacy of the brand itself, but Land Rover is no longer in that market, which is hugely significant for the brand.

Ineos have been really crap at some things, like actual meaningful communication with customers, but they are being very smart in developing variants of the Grenadier and now Quartermaster, to move into the void left by Defender. Ineos is not only taking JLR sales, but more importantly, is moving into traditional Defender roles and taking over the legacy of Defender.

The Grenadier looks so much like a Defender it gets mistaken for one, even by car enthusiasts, so future generations will start to associate the old defenders with Ineos Grenadiers, and Grenadiers are taking over the traditional roles of Defenders, so people are going to get a bit confused about how Land Rover used to fit into it all. Over time, it will be very difficult for JLR to stop that Defender legacy becoming something of a distant memory for future generations, in relation to Land Rover.

That legacy hasn't been lost to the market though, its still there, Land Rover Defender's legacy is just being re-badged to Ineos, who is already leveraging off Defenders legacy to develop new products and compete with JLR (i.e. Fusilier), what a brilliant bit of marketing strategy by Ineos.

So while the Defender is a great vehicle and has been a successful individual product for JLR, the vehicle it is and the way it's been badged has cost JLR an entire market and potentially the legacy that the Land Rover brand is built on - that's a huge loss for any brand.

Don't forget Mercedes role in all of this as well, JLR's release of the new Defender competes directly with the G'Wagon, but Mercedes had the brilliant opportunity to counter and move the G'Wagon into the traditional Defender market, not leaving any room for Ineos. I for one was considering a G'Wagon, which is a brilliant 4x4, but they only sell the sports version here in Aus, which is totally useless as a proper 4x4!! Mercedes also had the capacity, Ineos now owns their old factory - I can't get over the irony of Ineos using the Mercedes factory and Defender legacy, to build a brand and develop products that are now going to compete with them both.

 

[Max]

There have been a few comments that the Defender and Grenadier are different vehicles that serve different roles, which is very true. The Grenadier now serves the role of the old Defenders, while the new Defender is now in direct competition with the rest of the Land Rover/Range Rover products, so while the new defender has been successful, it has come at the cost of other sales, especially Discovery.

The Defender is selling in the numbers it is because of the vehicle it is, which gives it much broader appeal than the old Defender, or even the Grenadier. The Defender branding does help a bit, but it's mainly the vehicle that has the appeal, so it could easily still have sold as strongly if wore the Discovery badge.

JLR would then have had the room to have updated the Defender to be more faithful and in keeping with its legacy (like the G'Wagon), not only maintaining, but building on the market that Ineos has now moved into, because JLR left a vacuum that Ineos has filled.

The old Defender may not have been selling in large numbers, but it kept JLR in a market that defined the essence of what a Land Rover is, a market that underpinned the legacy of the brand itself, but Land Rover is no longer in that market, which is hugely significant for the brand.

Ineos have been really crap at some things, like actual meaningful communication with customers, but they are being very smart in developing variants of the Grenadier and now Quartermaster, to move into the void left by Defender. Ineos is not only taking JLR sales, but more importantly, is moving into traditional Defender roles and taking over the legacy of Defender.

The Grenadier looks so much like a Defender it gets mistaken for one, even by car enthusiasts, so future generations will start to associate the old defenders with Ineos Grenadiers, and Grenadiers are taking over the traditional roles of Defenders, so people are going to get a bit confused about how Land Rover used to fit into it all. Over time, it will be very difficult for JLR to stop that Defender legacy becoming something of a distant memory for future generations, in relation to Land Rover.

That legacy hasn't been lost to the market though, its still there, Land Rover Defender's legacy is just being re-badged to Ineos, who is already leveraging off Defenders legacy to develop new products and compete with JLR (i.e. Fusilier), what a brilliant bit of marketing strategy by Ineos.

So while the Defender is a great vehicle and has been a successful individual product for JLR, the vehicle it is and the way it's been badged it has cost JLR an entire market and potentiall the legacy that the Land Rover brand is built on - that's a huge loss for any brand.

Don't forget Mercedes role in all of this as well, JLR's release of the new Defender competes directly with the G'Wagon, but Mercedes had the brilliant opportunity to counter and move the G'Wagon into the traditional Defender market, not leaving any room for Ineos. I for one was considering a G'Wagon, which is a brilliant 4x4, but they only sell the sports version here in Aus, which is totally useless as a proper 4x4!! Mercedes also had the capacity, Ineos now owns their old factory - I can't get over the irony of Ineos using the Mercedes factory and Defender legacy, to build a brand and develop products that are now going to compete with them both.

IMO. Not forgetting FIGURE$ and with TATA owning the New JLR who knows what models will stay or disappear but the gamble they took with the ND has payed off big time and maybe cannibalised the Disco on the way. Most Grenadier buyers would not consider a ND and Ineos Auto know their market exactly by the way they engaged us and made us part of the big picture before the Gren was built but that big picture is about 20000 units a year the same amount roughly as the old Land Rover Defender that was not making money for the old company. Ineos and Merc are friends Ineos owns about a third of Merc F1 team and the Merc G Wagon is no longer and they may stop all wagons by 2030 but honestly who knows where the automotive industry will be by then.