Ineos investing $2.3 billion in hydrogen

[HouseMD]

Perhaps a hydrogen version of the Grenadier is more likely than a full electric or PHEV based on this. 

https://www.reuters.com/business/sustainable-business/ineos-invest-23-bln-green-hydrogen-production-2021-10-17/

 

[HouseMD]

Furthering reading (partnering with Hyundai on hydrogen): 
https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-britishcars/ineos-backs-hydrogen-for-future-grenadiers/44818

 

[Stu_Barnes]

To follow up on this a bit more on Hydrogen from INEOS

https://www.ineos.com/inch-magazine/articles/issue-16/fuel-for-thought/

 

[DCPU]

Whilst Ineos have gone with Hyundai for developing the fuel cell version of the Grenadier, it's got to be looking closely at what it's ICE partner is doing...

"BMW Group commences in-house production of fuel cells for BMW iX5 Hydrogen in Munich"

BMW Group commences in-house production of fuel cells for BMW iX5 Hydrogen in Munich.

+++ Hydrogen is an additional option for electric drive systems +++ Fuel cells are manufactured in the company’s competence centre for hydrogen +++ BMW Group leads the way in hydrogen technology in the premium electric vehicle segment +++

www.press.bmwgroup.com

 

[USandPR]

Someone at the show told me the owners are heavy into hydrogen and can make easy to find fill up stations a reality. that is a big investment....

 

[emax]

> that is a big investment....

And I consider it a good one.

 

[USandPR]

> that is a big investment....

And I consider it a good one.

my exact words in reply and he reiterated they were serious about it. time will tell.

 

[DaveB]

my exact words in reply and he reiterated they were serious about it. time will tell.

Keep in mind that Ineos prime business is chemical, petrochemical and Oil & Gas. Also jackets.

 

[emax]

And cars.

 

[rovie]

Whilst Ineos have gone with Hyundai for developing the fuel cell version of the Grenadier, it's got to be looking closely at what it's ICE partner is doing...

"BMW Group commences in-house production of fuel cells for BMW iX5 Hydrogen in Munich"

View attachment 7792615

BMW Group commences in-house production of fuel cells for BMW iX5 Hydrogen in Munich.

+++ Hydrogen is an additional option for electric drive systems +++ Fuel cells are manufactured in the company’s competence centre for hydrogen +++ BMW Group leads the way in hydrogen technology in the premium electric vehicle segment +++

www.press.bmwgroup.com

Well, I have more confidence in INEOS than in the Bavarians.

 

[DaveB]

And cars.

Cars are just a sideline at the moment but he didn't become a billionaire by making bad business decisions. In the next couple of years we will see a dual cab and a long wheelbase station wagon. You can pretty well guarantee a short wheelbase 2 door is in the files somewhere. I think he mentioned that in an EV version. They will have to build something more suited to the US tastes as well. 10 years time they will be going after the up market bling sector (Chelsea Tractor) etc etc It wouldn't surprise me if they purchased a US car plant to avoid the onion tax.

 

[USandPR]

Cars are just a sideline at the moment but he didn't become a billionaire by making bad business decisions. In the next couple of years we will see a dual cab and a long wheelbase station wagon. You can pretty well guarantee a short wheelbase 2 door is in the files somewhere. I think he mentioned that in an EV version. They will have to build something more suited to the US tastes as well. 10 years time they will be going after the up market bling sector (Chelsea Tractor) etc etc It wouldn't surprise me if they purchased a US car plant to avoid the onion tax.

They did say at the show there will be a small version, I guess a Samurai look from the 80s? lol

I'm sure they are smart enough to buy or build a plant in some place like Tennessee, Kentucky, or South Carolina, or North Carolina where the US offices are.

 

[DaveB]

They did say at the show there will be a small version, I guess a Samurai look from the 80s? lol

I'm sure they are smart enough to buy or build a plant in some place like Tennessee, Kentucky, or South Carolina, or North Carolina where the US offices are.

Yes that makes sense because their existing plant has capacity issues and rather than expanding it the sensible option would be buy or build plants in other parts of the world. South America, Asia, South Africa. That would also mean they don't have to make globally compliant vehicles or engineer for both left and right hand drive. They could wack a 19.7 litre Cummins diesel with 14" lift on 55" wheels for the US market.

 

[Stu_Barnes]

INEOS is pleased to announce the North American spec Grenadier ‘Mad Max’ edition

 

[Guru]

It’s the “chicken tax” not Onion.

Applies to only pickups at the moment 25% import duty introduced in 1964 FFS….

Chicken tax - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[DaveB]

It’s the “chicken tax” not Onion.

Applies to only pickups at the moment 25% import duty introduced in 1964 FFS….

Chicken tax - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I thought onion was wrong as I typed it but I figured you'd know what I meant.

 

[DCPU]

Someone at the show told me the owners are heavy into hydrogen and can make easy to find fill up stations a reality. that is a big investment....

From what I've read, hydrogen is more a by product of some of their chlorine making facilties.

Whether it has a mainstream future for small passenger vehicles seems very much in doubt; but then isn't that similar to the niche the Grenadier is filling.

 

[emax]

The energy consumption of battery production and the obtaining and processing of raw materials
- vs. fuel cell technology efforts
- vs. e-fuel technology efforts
doesn't seem to play role in this graphic. Nor does the recycling.

Does the A,B, ... G rating in the first picture mean a 'demand' rating (as the headline suggests) or an efficiency rating (as the design suggests)?

 

[emax]

About the sources:

"Michael Liebreich (born 11 August 1963) is Chairman and CEO of Liebreich Associates, through which he provides advisory services and speaks on clean energy and transportation, smart infrastructure, technology, climate finance and sustainable development."
From wikipedia.

Sounds good at first. Sounds biased at second.

transportenvironment.org:

"Campaign with us
Let’s shape the future of European transport and environmental policy together
...
Transport is the single largest source of greenhouse gas emissions in Europe, accounting for a quarter of all emissions, as well as non-CO2 pollution causing the illness and premature deaths of hundreds of thousands of Europeans.

Europe’s transport can and must be decarbonised by 2050 at the very latest ..."
From transportenvironment.org.

I must say that I am not absoluteley convinced about their impartiality ...

 

[cheswick]

About the sources:

"Michael Liebreich (born 11 August 1963) is Chairman and CEO of Liebreich Associates, through which he provides advisory services and speaks on clean energy and transportation, smart infrastructure, technology, climate finance and sustainable development."
From wikipedia.

Sounds good at first. Sounds biased at second.

transportenvironment.org:

"Campaign with us
Let’s shape the future of European transport and environmental policy together
...
Transport is the single largest source of greenhouse gas emissions in Europe, accounting for a quarter of all emissions, as well as non-CO2 pollution causing the illness and premature deaths of hundreds of thousands of Europeans.

Europe’s transport can and must be decarbonised by 2050 at the very latest ..."
From transportenvironment.org.

I must say that I am not absoluteley convinced about their impartiality ...

Yep. I don’t think anyones arguing that the cycle of energy from electricity to motive mower is not far more efficient with an electric vehicle. It’s just that these studies invariably over magnify the difference by representing EV’s in the most positive light possible whilst cherry-picking the worst case scenario for alternatives.

Case in point here. Passenger vehicle batteries can weigh half a tonne which also necessitates an over-engineered chassis requiring more steel and/or aluminium not to mention the increased impact on roads. Surely carrying half a tonne of additional weight has an impact on efficiency. Where does this graph account for that?