Grenadier vs 2024 Land Cruiser

[Fab]

Oh but it's got "eight-way power driver's seat with massaging function and four-way power lumbar, heated and cooled front seats, heated steering wheel with leather trim, nine-speaker Infinity audio system, wireless smartphone charging, 64-colour ambient interior lighting"

Now that's real value for money...

 

[Grenon]

For the US market at least, this sounds like bad news/timing for Ineos. 01Aug2023 is the announcement date for the newly redesigned/reintroduced Land Cruiser.

Im assuming it’ll be hard to get one in the beginning but it should be exciting.

Will this affect your Grenadier decision? I guess we’ll know more after the 1st.

That new Land Cruiser should either be marketed as the new FJ Cruiser or the new 4Runner. A new Land Cruiser to me is the 200 or 300 Series. That vehicle was never built to compete with a Bronco or Wrangler. I’ll stick with the IG. Not temping at all.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

The Grenadier is meant to be a solid basis to build your 4WD vehicle from.
That doesn't mean it should be cheap.
Apart from the software glitches the basic components and engineering in the Grenadier is top specification and an unbelievable starting point.
Some people start with the base 2 or 5 seater in Utility or wagon form and decide they will do everything from there themselves.
Some start with the Trialmaster
Others the Fieldmaster.

The fact is that it isn't what everyone wants or needs and that doesn't make you wrong if you decide it isn't right for you.
It means you have made the right decision for you.

I am not sure which model Toyota you are talking about for $65K (AUD$75K) but they start at the very base model here just below the Grenadier base model


View attachment 7822819

No disgreement here, Dave. I have no doubt that the Grenadier is the most solid platform to build from on the market today, with a possible nod over to the Wrangler/Gladiator in second place due to the sheer volume of aftermarket support (but the base quality is always Jeep, so that cuts the bottom out a bit). And as usual I'm speaking from a Canadian perspective as our market here is a bit different than it is in the rest of the world.

I don't think the Grenadier should be cheap, but I do acknowledge that it's gone from "nothing else on the market is close" when it was first announced to having similar vehicles nipping at it's heels. When the Grenadier was announced, the Land Cruiser was retreating from North America, the New Defender was a major disappointment, and the toys from Jeep and Ford were just that - Toys. Since then, we've got the new Bronco, the Gladiator, a Diesel Wrangler that folks begged and pleaded for for decades, and now a new Land Cruiser for North America, as well as significant strides by the toys like the Taco, 4Runner (maybe) and Ranger, so the market looks a lot different now than it did a few years ago.

I think you nailed it in terms of preference -- the real question is what kind of a truck does a guy really need to build? For a typical well-spec'd adventure vehicle, you need a few bits and bobs that will be available for both the Gren and the Land Cruiser and more or less bolt them on. Get behind the wheel, have an adventure, and then park it 'till the next one (or in between use it as the grocery getter). Repeat for 5-7 years then trade it for the next one. From this perspective I don't see anything that a Grenadier can do that this new Land Cruiser 250 cannot do from a high level (in other words, both are off road trucks that should be pretty robust most of the time); the devil will be in the details. How much volume? How much weight? How easy are those bolt-on bits and bobs to get bolted on? How much will this cost out the door? We have somewhat of an answer to that last question, and the gap at this stage appears pretty big, so then the question for the buyer becomes "Is the Grenadier worth X dollars more than the Land Cruiser, and why?"

I think that last question is an important one for me. Is the Gren worth the extra $$ because it can carry a bit more weight? For the money I save, I can buy lighter equipment so if we're talking 100 lbs, that's a wash and my answer is likely "nah". If we're talking a thousand pounds -- well, aluminum bumpers and titanium cutlery only goes so far! Personally, the big differentiator in the Gren is the robustness -- I want a vehicle that I can pass on to my kid in 20 years time. I think the design of the Gren suggests that it will be that kind of vehicle -- but the Land Cruiser has proven to be that kind of vehicle too, which is why I think this latest entry by Toyota is a fair comparator.

In terms of pricing, I was referring to this new NA-spec Land Cruiser they've just announced; Toyota is talking about this new Land Cruiser 250 as being in at around the mid-$50s USD; I reckon that would put it around the mid-$60s for one with a few options ticked. I'm not sure how many big macs that is but it's less than a Grenadier Of course that brings out a different questions - is this 250 only going to be available in the NA Market? Does that include Canada (Something tells me "no"!). If this is going to only be in the USA, then it's viability as a "world" platform is in question, and candidly I think it would give Toyota an excuse to take shortcuts on the robustness given the typical use case in the USA of a 4x4 (think shopping malls and largely well-known trails, as compared to a "normal" land cruiser being rode hard and put away wet on a mine site in the middle of the jungle)

 

[DaveB]

No disgreement here, Dave. I have no doubt that the Grenadier is the most solid platform to build from on the market today, with a possible nod over to the Wrangler/Gladiator in second place due to the sheer volume of aftermarket support (but the base quality is always Jeep, so that cuts the bottom out a bit). And as usual I'm speaking from a Canadian perspective as our market here is a bit different than it is in the rest of the world.

I don't think the Grenadier should be cheap, but I do acknowledge that it's gone from "nothing else on the market is close" when it was first announced to having similar vehicles nipping at it's heels. When the Grenadier was announced, the Land Cruiser was retreating from North America, the New Defender was a major disappointment, and the toys from Jeep and Ford were just that - Toys. Since then, we've got the new Bronco, the Gladiator, a Diesel Wrangler that folks begged and pleaded for for decades, and now a new Land Cruiser for North America, as well as significant strides by the toys like the Taco, 4Runner (maybe) and Ranger, so the market looks a lot different now than it did a few years ago.

I think you nailed it in terms of preference -- the real question is what kind of a truck does a guy really need to build? For a typical well-spec'd adventure vehicle, you need a few bits and bobs that will be available for both the Gren and the Land Cruiser and more or less bolt them on. Get behind the wheel, have an adventure, and then park it 'till the next one (or in between use it as the grocery getter). Repeat for 5-7 years then trade it for the next one. From this perspective I don't see anything that a Grenadier can do that this new Land Cruiser 250 cannot do from a high level (in other words, both are off road trucks that should be pretty robust most of the time); the devil will be in the details. How much volume? How much weight? How easy are those bolt-on bits and bobs to get bolted on? How much will this cost out the door? We have somewhat of an answer to that last question, and the gap at this stage appears pretty big, so then the question for the buyer becomes "Is the Grenadier worth X dollars more than the Land Cruiser, and why?"

I think that last question is an important one for me. Is the Gren worth the extra $$ because it can carry a bit more weight? For the money I save, I can buy lighter equipment so if we're talking 100 lbs, that's a wash and my answer is likely "nah". If we're talking a thousand pounds -- well, aluminum bumpers and titanium cutlery only goes so far! Personally, the big differentiator in the Gren is the robustness -- I want a vehicle that I can pass on to my kid in 20 years time. I think the design of the Gren suggests that it will be that kind of vehicle -- but the Land Cruiser has proven to be that kind of vehicle too, which is why I think this latest entry by Toyota is a fair comparator.

In terms of pricing, I was referring to this new NA-spec Land Cruiser they've just announced; Toyota is talking about this new Land Cruiser 250 as being in at around the mid-$50s USD; I reckon that would put it around the mid-$60s for one with a few options ticked. I'm not sure how many big macs that is but it's less than a Grenadier Of course that brings out a different questions - is this 250 only going to be available in the NA Market? Does that include Canada (Something tells me "no"!). If this is going to only be in the USA, then it's viability as a "world" platform is in question, and candidly I think it would give Toyota an excuse to take shortcuts on the robustness given the typical use case in the USA of a 4x4 (think shopping malls and largely well-known trails, as compared to a "normal" land cruiser being rode hard and put away wet on a mine site in the middle of the jungle)

I like the look of the new NA 250.
It will be coming to Australia to replace the very old Toyota Prado.
The Prado is one size down from the Landcruiser 300 and I think the Grenadier is an alternative for both.
It probably slots somewhere in between them or covers both.
I think the closest competitor to the Grenadier Trialmaster is the Landcruiser 300 in GR sport configuration
This has front and rear diff locks
Only 5 seats not the usual 7
Is about the same dimensions and probably aimed at the same buyer, but one that wants the confidence of Toyota reliability
That starts at AUD$152K or CAN$133K
Of course the Toyota doesn't include the bull bar dual battery etc. so add another $10-15K
My fully kitted Grenadier was AUD$121K but replacement now would be AUD$148K
Personally if I was looking at them today and was prepared to spend AUD$150-160K I would probably go the Landcruiser.
At the AUD$121K it is costing me the Grenadier wins hands down.

 

[Fab]

Seen the reviews on the Tank?
I personally wouldn't go near one. Resale would be woeful

I am just kidding off course.
I don’t these comparisons are making a lot of sense.
There are to many pros and cons for any of the cars that would come in consideration.
In the end a lot of emotion an influence comes into play anyway.

But I couldn’t find the negative reviews you are talking about, not even in Australia.

2023 GWM Tank 300 Ultra review

Petrol-powered Tank 300 is off-road-ready and comes with an enticing price tag

www.whichcar.com.au

2023 GWM Tank 300 review

With retro looks, a lovely cabin, and a spec sheet wanting for little, the Tank 300 will no doubt put 4x4 brands like Jeep on notice.

www.carexpert.com.au

2023 GWM Tank 300 review: Australian first drive

The 2023 GWM Tank 300 is finally here, and it's safe to say Aussies have been looking forward to this new 4x4.

www.drive.com.au

etc.

Could you send me some links Mr. Mike?

Enjoy, Fabio

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

I couldn't agree more and yes some are comparing apples to oranges...money is a big part of making a choice but how much do you pay for the best vehicle, the best engine,
the best gearbox, the best running gear, the best brakes, the best seats, the best 12-year warranty ladder frame, the best shocks and springs, the best anti-corrosion applications, and the best engineering overall...when another vehicle has what I have just stated then you will find a comparison and a price to go with it...don't forget this is a small niche market build...very hard to compare to mass-produced vehicles that don't have the same specs...this opinion is based on the information I have gathered while watching this vehicles evolution and the trials with reports from educated vehicle writers and off this forum...and a strong bias...

I agree with your take that the Gren has a lot of "best" components, but I always tread carefully with "dream team" approaches until they've got some actual trophies on the shelf. The 98/99 NY Rangers were a whose-who list in the world of Hockey: Brian Leetch, Marc Savard, John MacLean and even Wayne-Freakin'-Gretky -- they had the best players in the league on that roster.

But the players didn't play well together, and so the Rangers never got the cup.

I'm not saying the Gren won't be great and isn't great, I'm just saying the logic of "All the best bits" doesn't always track - we're only as strong as the weakest, and all the bits need to work together in harmony, and I'm keen to see what proves to be "the weakest" of the Gren, how it can be improved, and how all the bits work together -- We'll know more in a year, 5 years, 10 years, etc. (though for me, that's more of an academic curiosity and does not impact my interest in owning one).

I like the look of the new NA 250.
It will be coming to Australia to replace the very old Toyota Prado.
The Prado is one size down from the Landcruiser 300 and I think the Grenadier is an alternative for both.
It probably slots somewhere in between them or covers both.
I think the closest competitor to the Grenadier Trialmaster is the Landcruiser 300 in GR sport configuration
This has front and rear diff locks
Only 5 seats not the usual 7
Is about the same dimensions and probably aimed at the same buyer, but one that wants the confidence of Toyota reliability
That starts at AUD$152K or CAN$133K
Of course the Toyota doesn't include the bull bar dual battery etc. so add another $10-15K
My fully kitted Grenadier was AUD$121K but replacement now would be AUD$148K
Personally if I was looking at them today and was prepared to spend AUD$150-160K I would probably go the Landcruiser.
At the AUD$121K it is costing me the Grenadier wins hands down.

View attachment 7822881View attachment 7822887
View attachment 7822882

The car prices down under still take my breath away - granted the wages are higher as I understand but just on pure beer tokens, you folks need a lot of 'em to buy a car! At those numbers I completely agree with you - the Gren is a veritable steal at $121k when compared to the costs of the LCs!

 

[DaveB]

I agree with your take that the Gren has a lot of "best" components, but I always tread carefully with "dream team" approaches until they've got some actual trophies on the shelf. The 98/99 NY Rangers were a whose-who list in the world of Hockey: Brian Leetch, Marc Savard, John MacLean and even Wayne-Freakin'-Gretky -- they had the best players in the league on that roster.

But the players didn't play well together, and so the Rangers never got the cup.

I'm not saying the Gren won't be great and isn't great, I'm just saying the logic of "All the best bits" doesn't always track - we're only as strong as the weakest, and all the bits need to work together in harmony, and I'm keen to see what proves to be "the weakest" of the Gren, how it can be improved, and how all the bits work together -- We'll know more in a year, 5 years, 10 years, etc. (though for me, that's more of an academic curiosity and does not impact my interest in owning one).



The car prices down under still take my breath away - granted the wages are higher as I understand but just on pure beer tokens, you folks need a lot of 'em to buy a car! At those numbers I completely agree with you - the Gren is a veritable steal at $121k when compared to the costs of the LCs!

Cars are nothing compared to the price of houses and rent.

 

[stickshifter]

It's easy to rag on creature comforts like a heated steering wheel, but it's one of those things that don't effect the vehicle's ability to get you home. As long as it has a fuse it will not leave you stranded. I find it quite nice for extreme weather in my Jeep (and if Jeep can build this feature reliably, anyone can).

Cameras and proximity sensors as well, they don't increase your odds of getting stranded.

The Grenadier does seem to be computerized in ways that do make me nervous, for instance the car refusing to move with a door cracked open. Will a faulty or damage sensor leave the car immobile? Or perhaps the vehicle refusing to exit wade mode, hindering its ability to cool itself. The lockers also rely on wheel speed sensors; what happens if those get damaged or faulty?

Time will tell.

Exactly right. A year ago I was making the same arguments.

A heated steering wheel, heated seats, a forward-facing cam, are typically options - which means you can tick the box or not - depending on your wishes and/or budget. Why anyone would be opposed to having options is beyond me. The base-model Wrangler still comes with manual-crank windows, no air-con, horrible headlights, and a host of other simple, cheap features; it is your choice to stay simple or get more tech. Furthermore - as you stated - a heated steering wheel is a very simple piece of tech, and its one that has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not the vehicle runs. That's my kind of tech: stuff that makes my life better, but if it fails, has no impact on the operation of my vehicle. Its also my choice as to whether or not I fix it.

On the other hand, the Grenadier has a whole bunch of electronics that are not options, and may lead to real problems. You mention a few, and for some of the things you mention, there are analogue options that would have met modern safety standards (manually activated differential locks - using a lever and cable - for example). There are other examples of the design team at Ineos choosing the electronic option over existing analogue options, but I'll just mention one: the digital screen instead of analogue gauges for speed and things like fuel level, oil temp, etc. If that screen fails, you lose all your information about the vehicle (until a warning light goes off on the other screen).

At this point I've accepted all the design choices made by Ineos. But it still bugs me to see people celebrating the lack of a heated steering wheel as an example of how "simple" the Grenadier is. That makes no sense people.

 

[DesertGecko]

Yes.

It would have been a tougher decision and only after doing the maths on what I needed to spend on competing cars to get similar features. For example, with the INEOS I do not need to buy an oil catch can, second fuel filter, braided brake lines, etc. The Roo bar is cheaper than an aftermarket bulbar, the INEOS comes with genuine off road tyres (that is a big saving) and the way the car is wired I will spend a lot less money on an auto electrician. I get a 5 year warranty on INEOS accessories verse 2 years for aftermarket.

The more I thought about it, the yes became easier.

There are definitely things that the Ineos comes with that you would have to add to many other vehicles. As you've noted the bull bar is relatively cheap which is a positive and it has difflocks as standard in the trialmaster

If I did get a grenadier, some big things (I can think of now) I'd have to add that aren't on the option list.

- bigger fuel tank (hopefully).
- GVM increase?
- airbag rear
- light bar.
- wiring for camp power
- uhf
- roof rack
- compressor
- investigate whether the dual batteries are suitable or if there is any further need.

Not too much for sure, but probably 10 or more.

The problem is the car is probably nudging 50k or more above it's competitors. Which is a lot of accessories. Which I suspect I'd get a lot of change from.

I think people get a bit carried away on knowing someone who made their 78 series worth 150k. But they were creating bespoke cars with a whole bunch of accessories that I wouldn't need or want. If the company is paying and you have instant asset write off why not go to town on your every dream!

And I reckon you could easily get a grenadier to 150k without going at all over board.

I probably would have preferred a basic car at a better price that I could have added what I need. Frankly I thought they were aiming at 78 series or a little more. Oh well.

 

[Loc Nar]

At this point, I just wanna see the payload specs for the Land Cruiser offerings. If they can push about 1,700 lbs with a turbo 4-banger, I'll be suitably impressed. The wheels have six lug nuts. So, ya neva know.

 

[MarkH]

Frankly I thought they were aiming at 78 series or a little more. Oh well.

The 78 is the Troopy, 76 is the wagon.

 

[DesertGecko]

I like the look of the new NA 250.
It will be coming to Australia to replace the very old Toyota Prado.
The Prado is one size down from the Landcruiser 300 and I think the Grenadier is an alternative for both.
It probably slots somewhere in between them or covers both.
I think the closest competitor to the Grenadier Trialmaster is the Landcruiser 300 in GR sport configuration
This has front and rear diff locks
Only 5 seats not the usual 7
Is about the same dimensions and probably aimed at the same buyer, but one that wants the confidence of Toyota reliability
That starts at AUD$152K or CAN$133K
Of course the Toyota doesn't include the bull bar dual battery etc. so add another $10-15K
My fully kitted Grenadier was AUD$121K but replacement now would be AUD$148K
Personally if I was looking at them today and was prepared to spend AUD$150-160K I would probably go the Landcruiser.
At the AUD$121K it is costing me the Grenadier wins hands down.

View attachment 7822881View attachment 7822887
View attachment 7822882

No... comparing the grenadier to the 300 GR sport is exactly the problem.

The only thing I can see from the GR sport that the base model doesn't have that I want is the two diff locks, and the GR looses the snorkel. The rest is exactly the stuff I don't want.

So give me the base model for 101 drive away, and I'll add an ARB airlocker or two and keep the change, thanks.

I currently drive a Defender from 2005. The GX is sheer luxury to my eyes. Glorious rubber flooring!

 

[Tjhappel]

Trialmaster

Can we call them IG or something than tm? If we need Ti get specific we can eh?

 

[DaveB]

No... comparing the grenadier to the 300 GR sport is exactly the problem.

The only thing I can see from the GR sport that the base model doesn't have that I want is the two diff locks, and the GR looses the snorkel. The rest is exactly the stuff I don't want.

So give me the base model for 101 drive away, and I'll add an ARB airlocker or two and keep the change, thanks.

I currently drive a Defender from 2005. The GX is sheer luxury to my eyes. Glorious rubber flooring!

There's the rub
I was comparing it to my Grenadier which is definitely not the base model.

 

[Fastrunn3r]

How about we change the title to include the 2024 Prado at around $70k and see the discussion?

 

[MarkH]

How about we change the title to include the 2024 Prado at around $70k and see the discussion?

2024 LC is the Prado, and more like $90-95 in AU I think.

 

[Fastrunn3r]

2024 LC is the Prado, and more like $90-95 I think.

Nope. My brother has a contract for $68k for the GXL (primary producer) and I have a contract for $84k for the VX. I don't pay stamp duty, so final price will be around $79k.

 

[MarkH]

Nope. My brother has a contract for $68k for the GXL (primary producer) and I have a contract for $86k for the VX.

That's the current model. 2024 will be the new 250 Prado.

 

[Fastrunn3r]

It is a 2024... Word.

PS. I accept in the US, Toyota has said the new Prado will be priced in the US$50,000 range – which converts to just over $83,000 Australian dollars, let's see what happens. Still a hell of a lot cheaper than the Grenadier.

 

[MarkH]

View attachment 7822942It is a 2024... Word.

No pricing has been released yet on the new 250. You'll get the old shape/model, or be offered the new model for the new price.