Diff breathers

[DCPU]

It’s a known issue, certainty may be going too far. The problem is that these types of one way valves are good at releasing pressure, but if you drive a hot diff and axle into cold water, the pressure is going to suddenly drop, this will slam the valve closed on the breather and stop any water getting in through the breather, all good, but now you effectively have a vacuum and it will try to equalise itself however it can and that is generally through axle seals etc. probably less of a problem when the vehicle is new, but as it ages and wears the more likely that will happen while in the water and then water in the oil leads to premature and excess wear and corrosion.

I've certainly had water in my diff oil, as well as oil leaking out of my hub ends and steering swivels. It's almost part and parcel of running old Landrovers and the constant balancing of wallet against maintenance tasks.

So whilst I'm confident that it gets in under certain conditions, I've never read anything regarding the science of creating a vacuum in the axle. Can anyone quantify the pressure differential that a hot axle will have in cold water? Is it enough to draw water in? Does the depth and flow of the water have an impact?

Maybe Ineos/Carraro have done some calculations and designed axle seals that also help keep water out as well as oil in? It would be helpful to know the design philosophy (back to access to the technical documentation) before spending money solving problems that may not exist.

 

[Shopkeep]

I've certainly had water in my diff oil, as well as oil leaking out of my hub ends and steering swivels. It's almost part and parcel of running old Landrovers and the constant balancing of wallet against maintenance tasks.

So whilst I'm confident that it gets in under certain conditions, I've never read anything regarding the science of creating a vacuum in the axle. Can anyone quantify the pressure differential that a hot axle will have in cold water? Is it enough to draw water in? Does the depth and flow of the water have an impact?

Maybe Ineos/Carraro have done some calculations and designed axle seals that also help keep water out as well as oil in? It would be helpful to know the design philosophy (back to access to the technical documentation) before spending money solving problems that may not exist.

The axle cases look reasonably heavy and thickly cast, maybe they dissipate heat better and the valve will suffice?

 

[DCPU]

The axle cases look reasonably heavy and thickly cast, maybe they dissipate heat better and the valve will suffice?

I hadn't even thought of that element.

There certainly seems to be more mass in the axle, especially around the differential.

 

[AnD3rew]

I've certainly had water in my diff oil, as well as oil leaking out of my hub ends and steering swivels. It's almost part and parcel of running old Landrovers and the constant balancing of wallet against maintenance tasks.

So whilst I'm confident that it gets in under certain conditions, I've never read anything regarding the science of creating a vacuum in the axle. Can anyone quantify the pressure differential that a hot axle will have in cold water? Is it enough to draw water in? Does the depth and flow of the water have an impact?

Maybe Ineos/Carraro have done some calculations and designed axle seals that also help keep water out as well as oil in? It would be helpful to know the design philosophy (back to access to the technical documentation) before spending money solving problems that may not exist.

Can’t tell you an equation, I don’t think water flow will have a huge impact it’s more the temperature differential, I guess in theory flowing water will be worse as the diff wont heat up the water and so the temperature differential won’t even out as quickly but in reality most of the time the vehicle will be moving anyway so doubt it is a significant facto, depth will be to a point, but once you have a significant portion of the axle and diff in the water it will start to cool and if axle seals are underwater then there is risk.

as I said earlier I would guess it is probably less of a risk when seals etc are new, but overtime as they wear and perish the risk is likely to increas.

 

[Tazzieman]

I presume (or am I being too presumptious) they have had experience with G wagens , given the number of engineers from that project?
Do the military G wagens have raised diff breathers ex factory?

 

[AnD3rew]

I presume (or am I being too presumptious) they have had experience with G wagens , given the number of engineers from that project?
Do the military G wagens have raised diff breathers ex factory?

I could be wrong but I believe the G wagens, at least the working versions of them come standard with raised breathers.

 

[DCPU]

I asked the question to one of the Ineos specialist when they did the tour in Belgium and he confirmed that the Trialmaster had diff breathers. If I remember correctly they were routed to the battery compartment under the rear seat but I’m not a 100% sure. On holidays without the Grenadier now (too much sw issues to take it) so I’ll have a look when I’m back to confirm.

The tubing you may have seen under the rear seat is, I believe, the washer tubing that goes from the front tank to the rear wiper:

 

[TheDocAUS]

Red Winch have confirmed to me via email, the winch supplied for the INEOS Grenadier does NOT have a breather. Thanks again to Red Winch.

FYI: some Red Winches have breathers that can be plumbed into third party diff breathers to raise the breather.

 

[Tom109]

No, that's not what it says.

I've found a name stamped on the Ineos breather, looked up the company, and found a visually similar item in their catalogue. Whether this is the item used on the Grenadier, or Ineos/Carraro have specified a bespoke one, remains to be seen.

Yes, it pretty much does say that!

 

[DCPU]

"And if it's a standard one from their range, it looks like this one:"

If, obviously has a different meaning in your language...

 

[OzyGrenie]

Does anyone know about breathers for the ZF transmission and the TREMEC transfer case?

 

[James]

I hadn't even thought of that element.

There certainly seems to be more mass in the axle, especially around the differential.

It’s good question; I doubt there’s easy data, but the temp differentials are probably more of an issue in Australia/Africa than anywhere else. I’m going to guess that working the axles does not create undue heat, and that really hot ambient temps are likely to get a higher number, who knows, maybe working hard 50 over a hot highway? Water can be 0, but in a hot country unlikely to be much less than 15, still a decent drop. Maybe someone could take a stab at the pressure (volume) change for say 5 litre air volume experiencing 35 degree drop?
I’m looking forward to being too distracted by having the car to do this much conjecture…

 

[Clark Kent]

Does anyone know about breathers for the ZF transmission and the TREMEC transfer case?

This could be the transfer case breather. Front face of the transfer case up the top. Viewable from the left side of the vehicle looking up and rearwards.
Hose goes forward along the top of the transmission then up between the firewall and the back of the engine. Can't follow it to see where it terminates.

 

[DCPU]

Actually, that hex key was ideal for the drain plug but not so good for the fill/level plug on the front diff. Access is hampered by the various huge tubular steel arms ~ I'm not sure whether a socket Allen key and a 6" extension bar would be easier or not. Ran out of time to find an ideal solution today.

I realised I was assuming that the fill plug was also the level plug, so I asked the question:

 

[Logsplitter]

I realised I was assuming that the fill plug was also the level plug, so I asked the question:
View attachment 7823331

How could you over fill it it if it dribbles out when full or am I missing something. Maybe she or he is just Lala

 

[DenisM]

How could you over fill it it if it dribbles out when full or am I missing something. Maybe she or he is just Lala

It's critical the vehicle is level for the "when it dribbles out it's full". People have been known to jack the vehicle on one side only for access... resulting in overfilling...

 

[DCPU]

Yes, or if you have a big hand cranked pump with large nozzle, it's always easy to pump in an extra litre, pull the nozzle out and bang the plug in before it's all come out.

 

[OzyGrenie]

Diff breathers are needed for anyone involved in water crossings above the top of the diff. No such water crossing means no need for third party diff breathers. Otherwise you run the risk of serious damage to the diffs, transmission and transfer case.

The small cost of fitting third party diff breathers is a lot cheaper than fixing a diff, transmission or transfer case due to water contamination.

The majority of owners will easily cross rivers axle depth if not wheel depth (without strong current). Not only Diff breathers, what about Gearbox and Transfer Case etc. plus others? The rear seat is way to low. Diff breathers need to finish highest point of the firewall.

I am told by the agent no one has fully seen the entire Grenie's Online Manual as yet along with the entire spare parts list.

There a few fundamentals required when you get it home. Famiiarisation, setting up the car properly with a few trial trips with mates with recover gear too is a good idea. Prepping the Grenadier is everything.
Am surprised with a few Youtubers is common just to take it out bush immediatley! (obviusly havent learnt the hard way). NOT a good idea way too many assumptions.

My suggestions;

• Become familiar with the car, both engine bay and underbody, use the jack provided, see if you can undo the wheel nuts etc.??
  (get a jacking plate, extend the tools supplied, a good air compressor is essential like the TJM and a tyre gauge plus tyre deflators, spare valve stems/dust caps etc & a good puncture repair kit - all the basics.
• When you get it home in the driveway, LANOTEC everything!!!! After a trip or under body wash, LANOTEC again (this helps INEOS chassis waxed coat protection).
• Basic recovery items and practice using them. (If you ordered the Red Winch, replace the rope as is way too short and impracticle (trouble is have to dismantle the front bumper to access, a big oversight), as it regularly requires maintenence. Would hate to be trying to fix/connect a winch rope bogged under mud or water!
• Fitting a strong bash plate to the higly exposed steering damper.
• Check/provide all Diff/Gearbox/Transfer Case breathers actually work. Test Raised Air Tube (snorkel) is actually sealed?
• Check Fuel filter / air filter - get some spares.
• Purchase the essential spare parts - ie. spare wheel nuts & studs, lots of spare bolts too like suspension.
• Many experienced off roaders paint the key underbody bolt heads to aid the quick check of all bolts for movement after aggresive track work etc. (before remote travel).
• AIRLINE RAILS - fixings - refer to https://www.motexion.com.au/products/tiedown-rails-for-vans
• Check all fuses - buy many spares.

And thats just for starters before adding gear!

G

 

[holdmybeer]

That's a fantastic list! Never heard of LANOTEC. Is THIS what you mean?

 

[TheDocAUS]

And thats just for starters before adding gear!

G

The majority of owners will easily cross rivers axle depth if not wheel depth (without strong current). Not only Diff breathers, what about Gearbox and Transfer Case etc. plus others? The rear seat is way to low. Diff breathers need to finish highest point of the firewall.

I am told by the agent no one has fully seen the entire Grenie's Online Manual as yet along with the entire spare parts list.

There a few fundamentals required when you get it home. Famiiarisation, setting up the car properly with a few trial trips with mates with recover gear too is a good idea. Prepping the Grenadier is everything.
Am surprised with a few Youtubers is common just to take it out bush immediatley! (obviusly havent learnt the hard way). NOT a good idea way too many assumptions.

My suggestions;

• Become familiar with the car, both engine bay and underbody, use the jack provided, see if you can undo the wheel nuts etc.??
  (get a jacking plate, extend the tools supplied, a good air compressor is essential like the TJM and a tyre gauge plus tyre deflators, spare valve stems/dust caps etc & a good puncture repair kit - all the basics.
• When you get it home in the driveway, LANOTEC everything!!!! After a trip or under body wash, LANOTEC again (this helps INEOS chassis waxed coat protection).
• Basic recovery items and practice using them. (If you ordered the Red Winch, replace the rope as is way too short and impracticle (trouble is have to dismantle the front bumper to access, a big oversight), as it regularly requires maintenence. Would hate to be trying to fix/connect a winch rope bogged under mud or water!
• Fitting a strong bash plate to the higly exposed steering damper.
• Check/provide all Diff/Gearbox/Transfer Case breathers actually work. Test Raised Air Tube (snorkel) is actually sealed?
• Check Fuel filter / air filter - get some spares.
• Purchase the essential spare parts - ie. spare wheel nuts & studs, lots of spare bolts too like suspension.
• Many experienced off roaders paint the key underbody bolt heads to aid the quick check of all bolts for movement after aggresive track work etc. (before remote travel).
• AIRLINE RAILS - fixings - refer to https://www.motexion.com.au/products/tiedown-rails-for-vans
• Check all fuses - buy many spares.

And thats just for starters before adding gear!

G

I look forward to you posting detailed information on some of those suggestions. A couple of points:

1. The raised intake is not sealed. INEOS have confirmed this. It is a raised air intake not a snorkel. Safari Snorkels have confirmed there are no current plans for a snorkel for the INEOS (we can hope that will change in the future if enough people ask).
2. You cannot put a longer rope on the Red Winch, it is custom winch made for the INEOS. You will need to use rope extensions.
3. Both fuel filters have finally be found on the Diesel model (at least the OZ spec).
4. Detailed threads already exist on fuses, NATO plugs, Deutsch DTP plugs and the CTEK chargers and quite a few other topics.
5. The diff breathers are very low and I will be rising them, before going through water.

Start a thread on Lantotec style products and we can add Chasis Shield and others.