Side lights

[CountyV8]

Im going now to try this as I think sidelights are a good safety feature if you have to leave the vehicle sort of parked either in town or out.

 

[landmannnn]

It doesn't do anything.

 

[Blackwolf]

Yes, tested (the indiactor stalk) and makes no difference. It would appear proven that only exterior lights which can be switched on and will stay on with the ignition off are the hazards.

This is a significant problem since it means that you cannot (in the UK) comply with Regulation 24 (1) (b) of the The Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 (as amended) as quoted by myself above if you need to stop on a road that has a higher-than-30mph speed limit between sunset and sunrise, noting that leaving the hazards on does not comply with Regulation 24 (which requires that you leave the position lights on whether or not you use hazards). I see this a significant problem, since I fairly regularly stop on NSL roads in the southwest to check on livestock, security, etc., and it is not possible to rule out a breakdown or other enforced stop which might either cause the engine to stop or you to need to leave the vehicle.

The owners' handbook makes it pretty clear that there was an intent to have parking lights. The behaviour of the lights as established by myself and landmannnn make it clear that they are software controlled. This should not only be a fixable problem but I would contend that it is a sufficiently serious safety concern to merit a recall.

 

[Blackwolf]

Im going now to try this as I think sidelights are a good safety feature if you have to leave the vehicle sort of parked either in town or out.

Not just a good safety feature - a legal requirement!

 

[CRH]

Not just a good safety feature - a legal requirement!

Your comments on the legality of the side lights as per the highway code are why I was sure that the indicator stick method would work.
It seems that there is a serious issue here that needs to be remedied urgently.
How do we go about getting this fixed, is it contact customer services on mass or is there a regulatory agency we should be notifying?

 

[Happyoldgit]

OK, back to square 1, they turn off after a few minutes.
Remember these?View attachment 7912643

Oh yes, I think I may still have one squirreled away somewhere.

 

[Eric]

Not just a good safety feature - a legal requirement!

I'm afraid the legal position is quite clear. a) in the UK parking outside a 30mph zone at night legally requires parking lights to be on. b) parking lights in modern cars are NOT a legal requirement. c) if your car has parking lights they are subject to MOT testing and must work or is a test failure. Conclusion, modern cars without parking lights can not legally park on the carriageway outside a 30mph limit at night.

 

[landmannnn]

I'm afraid the legal position is quite clear. a) in the UK parking outside a 30mph zone at night legally requires parking lights to be on. b) parking lights in modern cars are NOT a legal requirement. c) if your car has parking lights they are subject to MOT testing and must work or is a test failure. Conclusion, modern cars without parking lights can not legally park on the carriageway outside a 30mph limit at night.

Technically you could park with your side lights on, you would just have to leave your keys in the ignition.

It doesn't seem that there is a simple solution. The lights are run from the body control module which is designed to switch off after a period of time.

 

[Blackwolf]

I've emailed Ineos Customer Services asking for comment, if anything is forthcoming I will post it here.

 

[CountyV8]

Just tried it and locking with key they do not stay on. 24.5 Trialmaster didn’t work on my 23 one.

 

[Eric]

I've emailed Ineos Customer Services asking for comment, if anything is forthcoming I will post it here.

I suppose it depends on the demand from EU, AUS, US and ROW as to whether it is worthwhile, costly or achievable a retrospective ( or for future models) software update is developed.

 

[Blackwolf]

I suppose it depends on the demand from EU, US and ROW as to whether it is worthwhile, costly or achievable a retrospective ( or for future models) software update is developed.

Unless of course DVSA tells them to recall the vehicle and fix what is actually a significant compliance and safety issue.

 

[Eric]

Unless of course DVSA tells them to recall the vehicle and fix what is actually a significant compliance and safety issue.

But it complies with the legislation therefore there is no driver for a recall, without a change of the law. And is only a safety issue if someone is breaking the law, vis parking without lights. In which case the driver is culpable of an offence, not the vehicle manufacturer.

 

[Blackwolf]

I am not personally convinced that it does comply with the relevant legislation, this is something I am still looking into. We shall see.

In the meantime just make sure that you do not have to stop and leave your vehicle between sunset and sunrise unless in a 30mph restriction. Don't get a puncture, don't break down, and don't stop to help anyone. Also try not to get stopped by the Police since they will ask for your keys before inviting you into their car for a chat.

 

[landmannnn]

I am not personally convinced that it does comply with the relevant legislation, this is something I am still looking into. We shall see.

In the meantime just make sure that you do not have to stop and leave your vehicle between sunset and sunrise unless in a 30mph restriction. Don't get a puncture, don't break down, and don't stop to help anyone. Also try not to get stopped by the Police since they will ask for your keys before inviting you into their car for a chat.

Agreed on the parking element, it will be interesting to see if the helpdesk come back with anything.

 

[landmannnn]

Page 70 of the owners manual:

 

[Blackwolf]

Well, Customer Service has replied .... and the reply is entirely useless!

Thank you very much for contacting INEOS Automotive.

Thank you for bringing these issues regarding the sidelights and lighting in general to our attention.

We apologize for any inconvenience this electrical problem may cause.
We also appreciate you taking the time to consult and follow the instructions in the owner's manual and to comply with road regulations regarding vehicle lighting.
At this stage, we advise you to contact your dealer or another authorized Ineos professional without delay. Only these professionals are able to provide you with technical explanations and/or perform a diagnosis of the electrical system in order to identify the source of the problem and provide a solution.

The interactive map on our website will allow you to locate all dealers and their contact information.

You can choose the dealer closest to you and schedule an appointment at your convenience.

We hope that this problem will be resolved permanently and as quickly as possible.

Please do not hesitate to contact us if you need any further assistance.

Best regards
INEOS Grenadier Customer Care

 

[Blackwolf]

But it complies with the legislation ...

I am becoming more convinced that it doesn't.

Below is clause 6.12.7. of E/ECE/324/Rev.1/Add.47/Rev.9 "Uniform provisions concerning the approval of vehicles with regard to the installation of lighting and light-signalling devices"

The parking lamp(s) and, if applicable, the front and rear position lamps
according to paragraph 6.12.9. below, shall be able to operate even if the
device which starts the engine is in a position which makes it impossible for
the engine to operate. A device which automatically deactivates these lamps
as a function of time is prohibited.

(My emboldening of the most relevant parts)

Note that I have not yet had time to check context and applicability, but I believe this to be the current ECE lighting regulations.

 

[CRH]

I am becoming more convinced that it doesn't.

Below is clause 6.12.7. of E/ECE/324/Rev.1/Add.47/Rev.9 "Uniform provisions concerning the approval of vehicles with regard to the installation of lighting and light-signalling devices"

The parking lamp(s) and, if applicable, the front and rear position lamps
according to paragraph 6.12.9. below, shall be able to operate even if the
device which starts the engine is in a position which makes it impossible for
the engine to operate. A device which automatically deactivates these lamps
as a function of time is prohibited.

(My emboldening of the most relevant parts)

Note that I have not yet had time to check context and applicability, but I believe this to be the current ECE lighting regulations.

Maybe forward this to customer services?

 

[Eric]

I am becoming more convinced that it doesn't.

Below is clause 6.12.7. of E/ECE/324/Rev.1/Add.47/Rev.9 "Uniform provisions concerning the approval of vehicles with regard to the installation of lighting and light-signalling devices"

The parking lamp(s) and, if applicable, the front and rear position lamps
according to paragraph 6.12.9. below, shall be able to operate even if the
device which starts the engine is in a position which makes it impossible for
the engine to operate. A device which automatically deactivates these lamps
as a function of time is prohibited.

(My emboldening of the most relevant parts)

Note that I have not yet had time to check context and applicability, but I believe this to be the current ECE lighting regulations.

The question that rises, was it intended for there to be parking lights, as implied by the manual, ( albeit the manual often doesn't bear any resemblance to reality ) and subsequently the software programming inadvertently turned them off when it put the vehicle "to sleep". Which then begs the question if it does legally require them, how did it get type approval. I can't believe it has type approval if there is something non compliant. I am trying to find from where I was informed that " modern cars" did not require parking lights. And if they are required, why are they excluded from the MOT test.