Safety Systems

[IG_in_AZ]

What is your problem @emax - just what makes you so special that you believe you shouldn't be treated the same as everybody else or that you've something to hide or fear from such a safety featiure?

So, in other words:

"If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear"
-Someone on the internet

 

[DenisM]

So, in other words:

"If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear"
-Someone on the internet

with respect, that's not the point.... it's the continual encroachment on personal freedoms by 'big tech' which, under the pretext of "safety" and "safeguarding your personal privacy"...which they sell to the highest bidder...
Saying if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear is BS... do you not (for example) "hide" your passwords/credit card numbers etc?
George Orwell wrote the playbook as a warning titled "1984... "

 

[IG_in_AZ]

with respect, that's not the point.... it's the continual encroachment on personal freedoms by 'big tech' which, under the pretext of "safety" and "safeguarding your personal privacy"...which they sell to the highest bidder...
Saying if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear is BS... do you not (for example) "hide" your passwords/credit card numbers etc?
George Orwell wrote the playbook as a warning titled "1984... "

I'm right there with you. I have faraday bags for my phones, car remotes and laptops.

My quote was meaning to show the parallel to the comment and the inevitable result.

 

[rovingoz]

Identity theft is the big one. If you ever experience that you very quickly move into ' lock that shit down tight! ' mode.

 

[trobex]

I drive a Ute with 2 air bags, seat belts and that is it. No ABS, traction control, auto wipers, auto lighting or anything. I have winding Windows too! Grenadier will feel like a 1st class flight compared to what I'm used to.

Active lane assist island AEB is only for drivers using their iPhone. Auto parallel parking assist is also for those who never learnt to drive properly in the first place, hence why it was created!!!

The Grenadier had all the safety features listed on the brochure and that is it. There is no autonomous systems in the Grenadier, so I believe.

 

[Pipm4000]

Why do you think that e-call is traceable? As far as I understand the system it connects to the mobile phone net when activated e g by an accident.
Do you have any information that it can be activated by a „call“ from outside as well?

If it has a sim or number allocated - which it will have, the phone networks can trace it with some degree of accuracy. The data has value when scaled and is enhanced because the networks know the device type. The networks have been selling the associated mobile phone data for many years, it allows some insanely impressive insight but mobile phones are a much much richer data source, the car data is just approximate location data based on cell towers which will help with traffic info but this problem has been solved many times over already.

 

[emax]

If it has a sim or number allocated - which it will have, the phone networks can trace it with some degree of accuracy

Not only 'can' but actually does. The mobile network providers store all the meta data which is produced by a sim card module and thus by a mobile phone and by e-call as well. It's legal in Germany and I guess in other countries as well, as the meta data is to a degree necessary to run the mobile service. There are pending suggestions, claims and offers from insurances, banks and trading associations to monetize this data.

Even if a sim card is not "logged in", they still produce metadata. The IMEI is always trackable - otherwise one could not "track my mobile phone" which even works if the phone is not logged in.

Even if the module in the car was replaced due to a damage, there is still the IMSI which uniquely identifies the user account.

I was perhaps a bit naive to assume that this is common knowledge.

In 2009, Malte Spitz, a German politician, sued Deutsche Telekom for the release of his metadata for the last six months and was finally proven right. He then had this data visualised and made it public. You can see it here and play it via the 'play' button (if there is a google-maps warning you can simply click it away):

Verräterisches Handy

ZEIT ONLINE | Nachrichten, Hintergründe und Debatten

www.zeit.de

The result is frightening. And since 2009 we now have far more accurate data, because the networks are now 4G and are currently pushed to 5G. The data shown is btw a pure meta data result, with no GPS involved. So an encryption of GPS coordinates doesn't really change much and is mainly an argument for the stakeholders of the whole business behind e-call to reassure people. I see the fact that they point to encryption as an admission of the sensitivity of this data.

Anyone who is then still unconcerned and wants to be under control at all times like a dog with a GPS tracker on its neck is simply different from me. I don't want to hand over my sense of self-determination and dignity to the authorities at my driveway.


EDIT: typos

 

[Pipm4000]

[Anyone who is then still unconcerned and wants to be under control at all times like a dog with a GPS tracker on its neck is simply different from me. I don't want to hand over my sense of self-determination and dignity to the authorities at my driveway.
[/QUOTE]

If you have a mobile phone though you’re giving up the same info, so if you have a phone you’re wasting your time with this - even if it’s not registered to you 3 pieces of info will give you up, for example if I know the town you live in, the place you work and I know you visited a 3rd location on a specific day if I had the data I could ID your number 99.9% of the time. The only way around this in the modern world is to never have a mobile phone at all. For now though it’s not too worrying unless you are a serious criminal or terrorist. You could just disconnect the power to the e call button.

 

[bemax]

Not only 'can' but actually does. The mobile network providers store all the meta data which is produced by a sim card module and thus by a mobile phone and by e-call as well. It's legal in Germany and I guess in other countries as well, as the meta data is to a degree necessary to run the mobile service. There are pending suggestions, claims and offers from insurances, banks and trading associations to monetize this data.

Even if a sim card is not "logged in", they still produce metadata. The IMEI is always trackable - otherwise one could not "track my mobile phone" which even works if the phone is not logged in.

Even if the module in the car was replaced due to a damage, there is still the IMSI which uniquely identifies the user account.

I was perhaps a bit naive to assume that this is common knowledge.

In 2009, Malte Spitz, a German politician, sued Deutsche Telekom for the release of his metadata for the last six months and was finally proven right. He then had this data visualised and made it public. You can see it here and play it via the 'play' button (if there is a google-maps warning you can simply click it away):

Verräterisches Handy

ZEIT ONLINE | Nachrichten, Hintergründe und Debatten

www.zeit.de

The result is frightening. And since 2009 we now have far more accurate data, because the networks are now 4G and are currently pushed to 5G. The data shown is btw pure meta data result, with no GPS involved. So an ecryption of GPS coordinates doesn't really change much and is mainly an argument for the stakeholders of the whole business behind e-call to reassure people. I see the fact that they point to encryption as an admission of the sensitivity of this data.

Anyone who is then still unconcerned and wants to be under control at all times like a dog with a GPS tracker on its neck is simply different from me. I don't want to hand over my sense of self-determination and dignity to the authorities at my driveway.

I know that the telecom companies aggregate the movements. It is in the press from time to time (changed movements while covid for example)
Please have a look at post #80. e-call should not be a system which is switched on all the time in its basic standard. You will not trace a switched of phone neither.

 

[Jean Mercier]

Was at a police station some time ago as an interpreter for a hearing of a person.

• PO (Police Officer): So you pretend that your friend didn’t spend the night at your place?
• IP (Interrogated Person): Yes sir.
• PO: Did the telephone of that guy stay that night at your place?
• IP: Sure not!
• PO: How come his telephone was connected through WIFI to your router and your internet provider from 6 PM till the next morning 8 AM?

And another one …

• PO: So, you don’t know anything about the theft of these jewels in our city A?
• IP: No sir, but yes, I repeat, I was in the city that day.
• PO: Why do you think we captured you in city B [remark: 160 km distance, in our very densely populated country]?
• IP: I don’t know sir.
• PO: There was a tracking device in the jewel case!
• IP: But you didn’t find jewels in my car, did you?
• PO: No, but only one car went at the same moment as the jewels from city A to city B!
• IP: How can you know this?
• PO: We have ANPR cameras through the whole country! [ANPR = Automatic Number Plate Recognition]

 

[MrMike]

It's a political rating. If they would rate separately for passive safety and active safety it would be more credible to me.

But so it looks very much like they're trying to force automakers to install active safety systems, including that annoying forced emergency call which can always tell where you are - and you're not even notified when someone has made such a query.

Fortunately we don't get the "emergency" button in Australia, realistically it wouldn't work in most of the country where you'd want to take a Grenadier

 

[MrMike]

I drive a Ute with 2 air bags, seat belts and that is it. No ABS, traction control, auto wipers, auto lighting or anything. I have winding Windows too! Grenadier will feel like a 1st class flight compared to what I'm used to.

Active lane assist island AEB is only for drivers using their iPhone. Auto parallel parking assist is also for those who never learnt to drive properly in the first place, hence why it was created!!!

The Grenadier had all the safety features listed on the brochure and that is it. There is no autonomous systems in the Grenadier, so I believe.

The US are getting some of those in their Grenadiers, it's mandatory for all new vehicle manufacturers

 

[WhiteBear]

I asume it is a public 112 e-call and not a private, which is routed over Ineos.
German ADAC says:

„The ADAC sees no increased data protection risk with the new statutory emergency call system. The 112 eCall systems log into the mobile network only after an accident and send data to the rescue control center, not to the manufacturer (unless the owner has deliberately set it differently). The 112 eCall does not record any data in the car either.“

Last sentence is no longer true, the system collects data in its latest version, which is mandatory for type approval in the EU after July 2022:

intelligent speed assistant;
Interface to facilitate retrofitting with alcohol-sensitive immobilizers (breath alcohol measuring device);
Warning system for driver drowsiness and dwindling attention;
sophisticated warning system when the driver's concentration drops;
emergency brake light;
reversing assistant;
event-related data recording;
precise tire pressure monitoring system.
Passenger cars and light commercial vehicles must be equipped with other advanced safety measures, including:
advanced emergency braking systems that can detect vehicles ahead and vulnerable road users;
emergency lane departure warning systems;
Extended head impact protection areas to reduce potential injuries to vulnerable road users in the event of a collision.

Happy driving.

 

[bemax]

I asume it is a public 112 e-call and not a private, which is routed over Ineos.
German ADAC says:

„The ADAC sees no increased data protection risk with the new statutory emergency call system. The 112 eCall systems log into the mobile network only after an accident and send data to the rescue control center, not to the manufacturer (unless the owner has deliberately set it differently). The 112 eCall does not record any data in the car either.“

Last sentence is no longer true, the system collects data in its latest version, which is mandatory for type approval in the EU after July 2022:

intelligent speed assistant;
Interface to facilitate retrofitting with alcohol-sensitive immobilizers (breath alcohol measuring device);
Warning system for driver drowsiness and dwindling attention;
sophisticated warning system when the driver's concentration drops;
emergency brake light;
reversing assistant;
event-related data recording;
precise tire pressure monitoring system.
Passenger cars and light commercial vehicles must be equipped with other advanced safety measures, including:
advanced emergency braking systems that can detect vehicles ahead and vulnerable road users;
emergency lane departure warning systems;
Extended head impact protection areas to reduce potential injuries to vulnerable road users in the event of a collision.

Happy driving.

If we get a car with a type approval after July (6th) 2022 we will find out quite fast. It will have lane assistance…
If it comes without la it probably will be fine with the e-call as well.

 

[trobex]

The US are getting some of those in their Grenadiers, it's mandatory for all new vehicle manufacturers

What is the minimum requirement for US vehicles to be compliant? It will add to the costs for each system required but if it's a legal requirement then that makes sense.
For me, AEB makes the most sense for something 'mandatory' - but risk a little tail end nervousness with the way SEQLD drivers tail gate. Lane assist annoys me more than helps in the wife's car.
The GREN at 2700kgs could have probably done with an AEB in retrospect haha... it will make that Yaris look like a sardine can.

 

[MrMike]

What is the minimum requirement for US vehicles to be compliant? It will add to the costs for each system required but if it's a legal requirement then that makes sense.
For me, AEB makes the most sense for something 'mandatory' - but risk a little tail end nervousness with the way SEQLD drivers tail gate. Lane assist annoys me more than helps in the wife's car.
The GREN at 2700kgs could have probably done with an AEB in retrospect haha... it will make that Yaris look like a sardine can.

I'm not entirely sure what the exact requirements are, but I have heard that AEB is one.

 

[Shopkeep]

Anyone who is then still unconcerned and wants to be under control at all times like a dog with a GPS tracker on its neck is simply different from me. I don't want to hand over my sense of self-determination and dignity to the authorities at my driveway.
EDIT: typos

If "they" know where you live, who you live with, how much you earn and all your medical history (plus much much more) why does it matter if they know where you go and if you have an accident?

 

[Krabby]

The selling of personal data is shady. For example, my dad got remarried at 75 and his wife, who has no connection to where I live or anything of the sort, has received junk snail mail at my address. It wasn’t even with our last name, but rather her former married last name.

 

[DCPU]

If we get a car with a type approval after July (6th) 2022 we will find out quite fast. It will have lane assistance…
If it comes without la it probably will be fine with the e-call as well.

Yes I'm trying to reconcile that fact with the data from NorType that suggests the type approval for the N1 was 30th August 2022.

 

[bemax]

Yes I'm trying to reconcile that fact with the data from NorType that suggests the type approval for the N1 was 30th August 2022.

Just a thought:
- replacement of parts in the steering system…
- some changes to the braking system…
- some last minute changes to the software…
- the information that the lane assistant will use the brakes and not a part of the steering to get the car back on lane…

Has anyone seen a camera mounted in the (windscreen of the) cars which are at the dealers site already?