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Safety Systems

Marke3

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Has anyone seen anything substantive on safety? Best I've picked up is 8 airbags(?), cruise control and ABS. This might have ranked 5-star a couple of decades ago. What about the passive and active systems expected these days? Have these been sacrificed to the minimise tech mantra or will we find them present?

And if that toot button doesn't play the Grenadier Guards song I'm cancelling my reservation.?
 

emax

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> active systems

You should first tell us what you mean with active systems, and what with passive systems?
 

Marke3

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Here's an explanation from my (Australian) rating agency, ANCAP:

https://www.ancap.com.au/understanding-safety-features

The combination of a sound structure, good restraint systems and active safety assist technologies provide the best chance of survival in a crash. You may even avoid one altogether.The safety of a car is based around:Structural integrity – how the shell of a vehicle withstands and channels crash forces away from occupants. This varies substantially from make to make and model to model. A sound structure is vital when it comes to saving lives.Passive safety features – built-in safety features such as airbags, antilock braking systems (ABS), electronic stability control (ESC), seat belts and seat belt pre-tensioners help prevent or manage the forces of impact. All are critical features.Safety assist technologies – semi-autonomous and autonomous safety technologies which assist the driver in avoiding or reducing the severity of a crash. These include blind spot monitoring (BSM) autonomous emergency braking (AEB), active lane keep assist (LKA) and intelligent speed adaptation (ISA).
 

emax

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Yes, I was afraid that this would come.

No, the Grenadier does not have each and every gimmick which is currently on the market. It has, as Ineos says, everything it must have, and nothing it doesn't have to. Thanks God.

But if you are missing AEB, LKA and the like: There are many cars out there you can select from.
 

Marke3

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Don't live in fear emax, life's too short?.  Seat belts were a gimmick once.

Most of the world is hoping the suspect vision of the  English gentleman farmer using this to cart a bale of hay to his half dozen sheep in the bottom paddock, doesn't prevail. Covering real distances in real sized countries is going to be important to the business case if they're going to be successful.

Unfortunately information has been scarce or hinting at the disappointing end of the scale on range and safety. 80 or 90 litres will be undercooked when kilometers are measured in thousands and safety systems count when many of those are driven at high speeds.

New technology is not, by definition, unnecessary or a gimmick. This Grenadier has plenty of new tech. People who want old technology can buy old cars.
 

Spjnr

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The Active safety systems aren't essential in my book at all. 

I intend to drive my Grenadier long distances, for long durations at a time, and have absolutely no desire for anything besides normal cruise control (even that i hardly used in my jeep) 

Features such as Adaptive cruise control and emergency braking require radar sensors placed in annoying locations such as in the grill, which becomes another problem when modifying or repairing the vehicle.

As for the efficacy of these systems, I'm sure they've saved a lot of people. However I cant help thinking that you become accustom to whatever systems you have, and then that becomes the norm. I like to think I'm a responsible and good driver, being someone who regularly drives HGVs and large tractors. I honestly feel i don't need my grenadier to keep me in my lane on a 12 hour journey, or throw me in front of a tractor down a narrow country lane when I try and pass one coming the other way (New Defender).

As Emax said, there are plenty of vehicle platforms with all this tech, but i kinda feel the Grenadiers USP is its relative simplicity in a world of molly coddled nanny systems.

PS. as a side note, my current stop-gap 2002 Hilux doesn't even have a seatbelt light. I like to think that it respects and trusts my judgement as an adult man to make that call myself ???
 

emax

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> Don't live in fear emax, life's too short

Exactly this comes to my mind for those who hunt for AEB or LKA. As a passionate long-distance motorbike driver for about 50 years now,  I have a different approach to traveling and driving. One without fear - but with respect to the risk which  every human being takes with each action in their life.

I had three traffic accidents in my life. Two of which were ridiculous: I fell over with my motorbike. Once on the left side, another time on the right side. The reason in both cases was a highly packed vehicle with a high center of gravity, combined with a whole in the asphalt where my foot didn't reach firm ground. As my motorbike is quite high and my legs are short, I fell over.

The third accident was a youthful sin: The first snow, and after two beers I felt the urge to drift in the snow in the dark with my 180 HP BMW. I hit a wall (in a soft angle however), and had a damage of 8000 DM, which was in that time the value of todays 8000 Euros. Believe me, I've learned my lessons.

No assistance system you can currently find in modern cars could have helped to avoid any of them. Not even an alcohol-blockade which is available in current Volvos. In that time (it was in the eighties), the alcohol-limit was much higher than two beers. And a stability control had never known that there was a wall.

All three cases were caused by own hubris, even the fell-overs. 

As a pilot, I see evolving a critical problem with assistance systems: The pilots (and drivers as well) forget how to fly or to drive. And this is not some legend, it is indeed a more and more arising discussion of professionals all over the world. If you are seriously interested in understanding the "Automation Paradox", I recommend this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ESJH1NLMLs

I would agree, that there are many people outside which are simply overwhelmed with driving a car. But the question is: Should they really be allowed to drive always and everywhere? - e.g. in cities at rush-hours, at night, in the rain, in the snow, in the fog, in the storm?

Another thing is, that people get more and more older. And older is, as a matter of fact, from a certain age on (!), a (statistical!) factor to failures. But if young people make their driving license with a bunch of assistants active during their driving lessons (in Germany you need about 30!!), they will never be able to really control their car in a critical situation which is not covered by some assistant. I remember, when I made my driving license, that I had to learn how to brake as efficiently as possible on the wet and the dry as well. And today? ABS, yeah!

I myself have made my first kilometers in the age of 14, when learning is an easy thing.  And they were almost exclusively driven in off-road terrain (because I hadn't a driving license). This was a really good training. So maybe I have an advantage in this respect.

But in half a century of being on the road, I as well developed a sense for danger. This doesn't of course guarantee accident-free driving. But it helps a lot. And in some rental cars I have experienced how dangerous assistant systems can be, as they clash with my style of driving and want to do things which sometimes exactly counteract what I have in mind.

No, thank you. Nannies everywhere? The world is risky.  This has to be accepted, and people have to take over responsibility for what they do, in particular if they are in fact not capable to do, what they claim to.



 

emax

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Spjnr said:
my current stop-gap 2002 Hilux doesn't even have a seatbelt light. I like to think that it respects and trusts my judgement as an adult man to make that call myself

This is worth an extra thumb! (y)
 
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stickshifter

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I also do not want a vehicle with active safety systems (automatic braking, lane keep assist). I understand that these systems will save lives when drivers are either inattentive, lack skill or experience, and even on occasions when a good driver has a bad moment. I still don't want them for the following reasons:

(1) Practical: I don't think they are reliable enough. I was a passenger in a vehicle that auto-braked unexpectedly. I understand that the tech will improve with time, so maybe this concern will also fade with time.

(2) Practical: I don't like the complexity they add. The Grenadier is trying to capture a specific niche: a simple, reliable, rugged, off-roader (at least as simple as possible given modern requirements). I don't see active safety fitting in with this goal.

(3) Financial: I don't want to have to pay for features I don't want.

(4) Philosophical: I am opposed to dependency on automation. That's a big conversation...

It is my understanding - based on some reviews I have seen but I can't remember where - that the Grenadier will not have active safety systems. At least not initially. I see this as a competitive advantage for the Grenadier in a marketplace that is full of vehicles with such systems.
 

Spjnr

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Very interesting video. I'm not a pilot, and probably never will be, but i can see the issues raised mirrored in our current strive for automation in cars and trucks. 
Is it good to have these systems as a backup for humans dozing off or not paying attention? Yes. But does it come at the cost of building in automation reliance in drivers? I'd say also yes.

I'm sure everyone's seen this video by now, but it really hits home how reliance on computer systems in cars can be fatal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfmAG4dk-rU

How could anyone not see that overturned truck? Was it by putting too much faith in systems beyond our control? Probably yes. The more opportunity you give the average driver to zone out and relinquish responsibility, the more they will take it. Like lane keep assist, although it can help, also acts as a safety net for people who want to sit there texting on a long journey, thus encouraging them to do it more.... I've witnessed this first hand being with mates in the car!  
 

Spjnr

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stickshifter said:
(2) Practical: I don't like the complexity they add. The Grenadier is trying to capture a specific niche: a simple, reliable, rugged, off-roader (at least as simple as possible given modern requirements). I don't see active safety fitting in with this goal.

(3) Financial: I don't want to have to pay for features I don't want.

Add to this that they can actually be a hinderance when it comes to fitting other off-road accessories, such as winches, lights and guards.

For instance the New Broncos adaptive cruise radar prevents conventional fitment of a winch  
 

Marke3

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Is this what this forum is likely to be? Ask a question and only get ignorance, arrogance  and opinion as replies? 

Thousands of words above but no actual answer to the question. The first response even admitted ignorance on the subject (you're welcome, by the way, for my non-judgemental help for you to learn).

It's unlikely Ineos will come here to take the pulse if this is the nature of discussion. Oddly, if I express my opinion I' d lean to many of your points of view.  I miss my FJ40 too and bemoan the fact that soon nobody will even know how to drive a manual transmission.

But let's think about this in the big picture. Ineos is a business and, while this initiative has been driven by one man's passion, ultimately it has to make a return. Unfortunately, they won't sell enough units to grumpy old men like me who hold on to old cars for decades. I'd prefer a manual but accept that automatic-only is just common sense.

They are engineering these cars to last, but won't sell enough to people who won't buy another for decades. They have to design to that reality. Even right now, they'll be dead in the water if they don't get fleet customers in mining and NGO's. Some of those already have policies to only buy 5 star safety rated vehicles.

There are pretty compelling reasons no single other automotive manufacturer in the world would design and release a car like this. Ineos are taking a huge gamble. I'd like them to stick around and support the car into the future so I'll willingly accept some business pragmatism in the design along with the fundamentals we are all so excited about.

Back to the forum, this thread is hijacked to venting opinion. There's nothing wrong with that but just do that if it's clearly what the OP intends. I could have said, "These new safety systems are crap, I hope they don't stick any in the Grenadier, what do you all think?".

If the OP asks a simple question, simply don't answer it if you don't know.
 

Spjnr

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Marke3 said:
Is this what this forum is likely to be? Ask a question and only get ignorance, arrogance  and opinion as replies? 

Thousands of words above but no actual answer to the question. The first response even admitted ignorance on the subject (you're welcome, by the way, for my non-judgemental help for you to learn).

Slow down there fella, I don't think anyone was looking to start an argument with you...

You're question was answered almost immediately. No, as far as we currently know, the Grenadier wont have AEB, ACC or LKA. The thread then diverged onto the subject of these systems in general, and their efficacy in a changing automotive world. I don't think this is "Ignorance, arrogance and opinion", just a conversation about a subject you started. 

?
 

emax

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First reaction was to better understand your question:

emax said:
You should first tell us what you mean with active systems, and what with passive systems?

Next reply said:

emax said:
...
No, the Grenadier [...] has, as Ineos says, everything it must have, and nothing it doesn't have to.

This is an exact answer as "must have" and "does not have to have" are precisely specified by law. It can not be answered any better as this varies from country to country.

So what's your problem? People having an opinion? A technically oriented forum yielding technical discussions? In that case, a forum might be a problematic place to ask a question.

And by the way: Instead of beginning with "This might have ranked 5-star a couple of decades ago " in a forum of Grenadier enthusiasts, a short introduction of yourself might have helped for a better start.

And you - knowing nothing about anybody in the forum - offer "you're welcome, by the way, for my non-judgemental help for you to learn" . This is, to be diplomatic, an astonishing aspiration.
 

knobby

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My 2c...  After having regularly driven my own car ( JK Wranger ) with no safety features and the work cars ( Landcruisers with a full suite..  there is also IVMS which is a form of active driver management )  I find one feature I would like  makes long drives significantly less stressful....  Active Cruise.  Maily due to my own impatience.  I run at the limit allowed,  if the "quad"(truck with 4 long trailers averaging 200 tonne) followed by a grey nomad with a caravan cant hold their speed I tent to take more of a risk to get past them...  I don't notice so much with the active cruise and tend to take a bit more time....  Yes, it's my choice, yes, I know what I should do...  doesn't change what I do do....

As far as other safety system go, I don't feel a need for them, but have an observation regarding the driver monitoring system my work places on us.  ( when it detects an inconsistency in driver attention, it buzzes/vibrates the seat, takes a video, beeps loudly...)    Every one of the drivers I know swear they are able to look after themselves, manage their fatigue and stay alert...  but out of 100 odd vehicles I would guess that a legitimate altert is generated at least a few times a year.   You see a picture of the driver, eyes closed...  sleeping...  In almost all cases, they will swear black and blue that they were awake and fine,  I some cases you see them singing away to some music in the cab 5 seconds before.  But the video doesn't lie.  These are classified as microsleeps.   I spose LKA is an extension of this...  

This is the type of safety system I would be happy with ( albeit local in the car only ).  Only overlay, no imact on the operation of the vehicle...

The only other tech ( not safety )  I REALLY want is the keyless entry and start.  Nothing worse than puttin muddy, greasy hands in your poclets when you could use a knuckle....
 

Tazzieman

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Looks and feels pretty safe to me.As someone used to 1960s Benzes and a '73 Land Rover...Happy chappy with it all.
 

Tazzieman

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Some people are holding back or wanting full safety ratings for their Grenadier.

Just because something was safe 5-10 years ago doesn't mean it can keep the 5 stars!
Will mining and hire fleets dump their "old" (perhaps not really that old) vehicles???

Worth a read...
 

DCPU

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It's an interesting situation ~ will contractors have to walk/cycle around site? Is that safer?
 

DaveB

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It's an interesting situation ~ will contractors have to walk/cycle around site? Is that safer?
Mining companies will need to understand that on road 5 star ratings may not be applicable on a mine site in a vehicle which in many cases isn’t even road registered.
Also by the time they add all their mine spec accessories does the 5 star rating still apply
 

AnD3rew

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Has anyone seen anything substantive on safety? Best I've picked up is 8 airbags(?), cruise control and ABS. This might have ranked 5-star a couple of decades ago. What about the passive and active systems expected these days? Have these been sacrificed to the minimise tech mantra or will we find them present?

And if that toot button doesn't play the Grenadier Guards song I'm cancelling my reservation.?
It has airbags, ABS, traction control/stability control and trailer sway control and as you say airbags. Thats it. It won’t get a 5 star rating because of that.
 
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