Power steering noise

[Eric.S.]

Hello everyone I was finally able to pick up my grenadier yesterday Unfortunately, I noticed at home that my power steering makes a strange noise. I think it's not a normal noise, or? The filling level in the container was at maximum with the engine warm but switched off. The German instructions do not say exactly in which condition the oil should be checked. Does anyone have an idea? I tried to post a video but I always see the file is too big (7mb)
Thank you

 

[Zimm]

NQ94- stop it with your information, insights, and analysis- we’re her to complain!



And this is what I want to get to- what does it take to fix it and who do I pay to get it done?

Just to clarify, if it is a Gladiator pump- why do we think that would fix it? How is the gladiator pump better? Better doo-dad thingy with holes and stuff?

He's suggesting a possibility its the blow off valve chattering. The fix would be a higher rate spring, but being we really don't know the oem rate and how much ("x"lbs'inch) spring would affect the PSI, we may be able to utilize the adjustable spring/valve that's being sold for the Gladiator pumps to raise the output for larger tires (a nice bonus for wheelers here). The Gladiator pump appears to be a direct swap from the housing casing, but NQ94 seems to be experienced and is avoiding blowback and misunderstandings from making a statement that could be misconstrued as definitive, so until he gets both on a bench side by side, he isn't committing...

At least that's my take.

If I had one of the "skinned cats" screaming under my hood, the valve would already be on the way to play with.

 

[singlefin]

Thought I read that Agile has been testing one of the Apex steering boost kits. Don’t recall seeing anything beyond that.

 

[Dlucky]

NQ94- stop it with your information, insights, and analysis- we’re her to complain!



And this is what I want to get to- what does it take to fix it and who do I pay to get it done?

Just to clarify, if it is a Gladiator pump- why do we think that would fix it? How is the gladiator pump better? Better doo-dad thingy with holes and stuff?

I’m in too.

 

[NQ94]

He's suggesting a possibility its the blow off valve chattering. The fix would be a higher rate spring, but being we really don't know the oem rate and how much ("x"lbs'inch) spring would affect the PSI, we may be able to utilize the adjustable spring/valve that's being sold for the Gladiator pumps to raise the output for larger tires (a nice bonus for wheelers here). The Gladiator pump appears to be a direct swap from the housing casing, but NQ94 seems to be experienced and is avoiding blowback and misunderstandings from making a statement that could be misconstrued as definitive, so until he gets both on a bench side by side, he isn't committing...

At least that's my take.

If I had one of the "skinned cats" screaming under my hood, the valve would already be on the way to play with.

Yes correct, I offer technical information from a technician's point of view as more of a hypothesis, a new thought direction that needs to be physically tested and proven or disproven by other technicians. Unfortunately, without having a vehicle and the rarity and expense of a wreck or parts to disassemble, investigate solutions and ideas as a non-dealer tech I am left with only sharing mainly heavy vehicle industry experience and knowledge.

NQ94- stop it with your information, insights, and analysis- we’re her to complain!

Negative moves to Positive, that's how electrons flow and that's how solutions are found.

 

[NQ94]

I should join the "Dull Men's Club" after reviewing the thread and videos and finding that there have been very limited reports of pumps totally failing. This steering noise issue has intrigued me as I regularly work with hydraulic systems and various hydraulic steer systems from full hydraulic to power assist systems like the Ineos design. After putting in excessive time researching the issue it looks like the Jeep Wrangler JT and JL uses the same family of pumps as the Grenadier with the Gladiator having the closest porting lay out. There is five or six different part numbers for the various Jeeps and years. Going off to various open Jeep forums, videos and articles it appears that some Jeep owners are experiencing the same issue as some Grenadier owners, this may have been previously mentioned.

I borrowed some photos from around the forum, the net and online stores to show some details. Some observations that were noted is looking at the Jeep Gladiator pump photo next to the Ineos pump the only major difference is the black end cover and it's porting. There are no assembly cross section drawings or parts kits easily available, and the pump is changed as a complete unit. The unit shares very similar design features with other brands of EHPS and with some searching there are videos and articles where people have disassembled pumps. The pump used in the Grenadier follows a pretty standard lay out and features with the black end cover the reservoir as well as the cover for the hydraulic pump which is submerged hydraulic oil supported by the hydraulic pressure relief valve being in the housing that the black cover bolts to. The electric motor in the centre section and the rear section being the sealed motor control and electronics section. The electrical inputs are a high current circuit and a CAN circuit for controlling the pump. If the CAN protocol on the Jeep and the electrical connections are the same as the Grenadier this pump theoretically could be interchangeable. People are changing the Jeep ones in their garage with what seems to be no reprogramming.

There has been a good deal of information on symptoms other than the noise relating to the noisy steering pumps. I have previously suggested electrical connection issues similar to some faulty Jeeps that could affect pump speed and early in the thread I did suggest possible hydraulic issues particularly in the relief circuit and relief pressure settings. The Jeep version images, and likely no change on the Grenadier version, show these pumps have the most basic spring poppet style relief valve. This type of non-adjustable pressure relief valves is not the best design and it is common to have variances from unit to unit as they depend on a good seat in the pump housing and good spring pressure and generally relive back into the inlet port of the pump. Poppet relief valves are generally for spike protection of the hydraulic system and are noisy, generate considerable heat and fluid turbulence if constantly operating partially open. This could be easily checked at the valve by operating the steering system with normal type driving and not holding on the steering stops. If this valve is continually going over relief the valve and the area around the valve will be considerably hotter than the rest of the pump.

There is a product in the Jeep community that is replacement adjustable steering relief valve or what they call Steering Booster Valve for the steering pump. Once fitted this valve that can increase hydraulic pressure to 2000psi 13.7Mpa to increase steering performance for large tyres and heavy steering loads. This could be beneficial for the pump fitted to a Grenadier not by increasing pressure but by having a better design and being adjustable to the correct and stabilise OEM pressure, keeping the poppet seated for pressure spikes and letting the electronics control the pump and remain as the primary control.







Left Grenadier Electrohydraulic Power Steer Pump EHPS
View attachment 7898315View attachment 7898316
Jeep Gladiator Pump
View attachment 7898328View attachment 7898334

View attachment 7898331

I have to correct a mistake. The part marked as a poppet valve is incorrect. It is a spring guide that sits on a spool. However, a spool that is set at too low of a pressure can also generate heat and noise as the oil passes lands to exit the circuit through the ports. A spool is a better design as it generally flows fluid better from port to port on the sides and not a tapered seat around a disc. A spool valve can have issues with excessive leakage if there are issues with the bore diameter and machining tolerances between the spool and the bore. As the valve is under the pump when fitted in the car the spool may fall out if the plug and spring is removed in situ.

Excerpt from the Apex Performance Products instructions. There are videos on YT with good install explanations.

 

[Tazzieman]

Negative moves to Positive, that's how electrons flow and that's how solutions are found.

And Christian and Vera from the Land Rover Time channel live by the knowledge that red is black and plus is minus.
But they always find the problem , and their work results in a 100% fix!

 

[Tazzieman]

Thought I read that Agile has been testing one of the Apex steering boost kits. Don’t recall seeing anything beyond that.

I had to google this. So you make steering easier with one of these devices?
The Grenadier steering is not exactly hard. Land Rover Series models, I'll grant requires a manly input.
Grenadier , no. IMO , of course.

 

[NQ94]

I had to google this. So you make steering easier with one of these devices?
The Grenadier steering is not exactly hard. Land Rover Series models, I'll grant requires a manly input.
Grenadier , no. IMO , of course.

Increasing the hydraulic pressure carefully in small increments by adjusting the relief valve pressure you can improve and make the steering lighter and perform better at slow speeds. Essentially the steering is a hydraulic system so there may be better information by Googling hydraulic system relief valve troubleshooting.