Owl Vans Grenadier Steering Box Upgrade

[HereinDaRockies]

Big update here: Owl has been amazing on customer support side, the pump seems to be healthy, no leaks or electrical issues.

After cycling the batteries the code went away and truck has been driving normally for hours today.

Could be an air bubble that caused a slight loss of pressure for a moment and potentially sent a code that couldn’t be reset without battery cycling.

Out of an abundance of caution, we’re going to swap the pump for a new Owl pump and the manufacturer is going to evaluate the pump installed currently. All parties surprised there was an error thrown.

That’s reasonable CYA reaction. Just a handful of these out in the field and probably a few thousands of miles across real customers - a catastrophic event has already occurred? It better be approached with the utmost caution. This pump’s liability profile is quite different than selling superficial alu interior bits and roof racks.

That miles/hours before failure figure isn’t optimistic though. Hopefully over longer time, it proves to be more error tolerant than what you experienced

 

[LazarusTheGrenny]

Abso

That’s reasonable CYA reaction. Just a handful of these out in the field and probably a few thousands of miles across real customers - a catastrophic event has already occurred? It better be approached with the utmost caution. This pump’s liability profile is quite different than selling superficial alu interior bits and roof racks.

That miles/hours before failure figure isn’t optimistic though. Hopefully over longer time, it proves to be more error tolerant than what you experienced

Absolutely, and the Owl guys said the same thing as your last point unsolicited.

Truth is some level of PSC Steering and/or the OE Supplier is building the pumps and Owl is distributing it under their name, as they initiated the development of a pump that has a bit better of a performance profile on pump mapping and pressure profile. So effectively the gain is turned up and the pump runs a bit more constantly to smooth out the start stop inconsistencies of the stock pump. Was also states that some Ineos engineers were involved and evaluated the pump upgrade as well and may have helped verify (rather than fully validating) the upgrade. The command the pump sees from the chassis control modules is the same and power profile is same similar as well.

Agreed, reliability will need to be demonstrated over time and number of units and use profiles. I don’t think anyone would disagree there.

One thing we do know is that the Grenadier has a tendency to over error/warn. The fluid level did drop after the weekend a very slight amount (no leaks) and this could have been an air bubble and perhaps the vehicle saw a slight hiccup or voltage drop, etc.

Again hard to know without a proper Ineos backed diagnostic tool, which is critical bit of kit for those of us who dig into the vehicles a bit more and work on them and require field serviceability. A core tenant of the Grenadier and something that needs to be delivered on sooner than later. Would have allowed for clearer diagnosis and then a quicker trial of the power cycle, even if it would just allow a “get home/to safe harbor” solution.

However, the pump has performed well without error in the days since. No issues after multiple inspections outside of the error flagged on the can bus and then a non-command/power to “save-the-pump”.

 

[HereinDaRockies]

Abso

Absolutely, and the Owl guys said the same thing as your last point unsolicited.

Truth is some level of PSC Steering and/or the OE Supplier is building the pumps and Owl is distributing it under their name, as they initiated the development of a pump that has a bit better of a performance profile on pump mapping and pressure profile. So effectively the gain is turned up and the pump runs a bit more constantly to smooth out the start stop inconsistencies of the stock pump. Was also states that some Ineos engineers were involved and evaluated the pump upgrade as well and may have helped verify (rather than fully validating) the upgrade. The command the pump sees from the chassis control modules is the same and power profile is same similar as well.

Agreed, reliability will need to be demonstrated over time and number of units and use profiles. I don’t think anyone would disagree there.

One thing we do know is that the Grenadier has a tendency to over error/warn. The fluid level did drop after the weekend a very slight amount (no leaks) and this could have been an air bubble and perhaps the vehicle saw a slight hiccup or voltage drop, etc.

Again hard to know without a proper Ineos backed diagnostic tool, which is critical bit of kit for those of us who dig into the vehicles a bit more and work on them and require field serviceability. A core tenant of the Grenadier and something that needs to be delivered on sooner than later. Would have allowed for clearer diagnosis and then a quicker trial of the power cycle, even if it would just allow a “get home/to safe harbor” solution.

However, the pump has performed well without error in the days since. No issues after multiple inspections outside of the error flagged on the can bus and then a non-command/power to “save-the-pump”.

Save the pump - if you were driving, when the pump turned off, how hard would the steering effort be?

But you only experienced it upon start up, so perhaps it’s programmed not go eagerly preserve itself while the vehicle is in operation

 

[LazarusTheGrenny]

Save the pump - if you were driving, when the pump turned off, how hard would the steering effort be?

But you only experienced it upon start up, so perhaps it’s programmed not go eagerly preserve itself while the vehicle is in operation

Driving at speed/with momentum, you could likely steer and get the vehicle to a safe location and stop. From a stop in a Trader Joe’s parking lot, not much steer angle was achieved, whether static steering or while rolling a bit. The steering box, pitman arm, and knuckle geometries aren’t designed for manual steering.

My thoughts mulling on this were similar to yours, spit balling here, likely logic from the control module’s state machine may say (note without fully knowing the module layout/callout, yet, this control module would be one of the chassis control modules, onboard the Grenadier itself, not native to the steering pump, the pump is simply getting on/off command and perhaps a relief valve/bypass to regulate line pressure, with the owl pump having updated control gains and pressure set points):

• If the vehicle thinks there’s a pump anomaly (for some persistence in signal say 2-5 seconds) AND wheel speed is greater than threshold value;
• Then continue power to the pump while wheelspeed is still above threshold
• Redlines: pump error persists beyond reset.
• If wheelspeed is 0 or this anomaly signal occurs upon key-on initialization;
• Then send no power to pump AND give warning, persist condition until reset (assuming diagnostics have occurred).
• Battery reset/power cycle can be interpreted as a diagnostic step/procedure
• The manual calls for “RED” warning to be heeded with a tow to “your local Ineos partner”

This is at least how I could see the automation sequence being written, with failure modes and effects analysis table indicating something to this state.

With more momentum and the lack of caster in our axle design you could still muscle it around if you didn’t stop or had clear runway to collect speed. It didn’t brick the truck either, everything else worked fine.

I have had low battery voltage issues (caused by my own mismanagement over night) that populated MIL errors like a Christmas Tree and after recharging and driving around they all reset and Offroad menus and data came back after a short drive cycle and a couple key cycles.

The team that designed and programmed this pump is also doing it for Jeep Wranglers, and has been for a some years. The whine you hear on a Grenadier pump is the same you hear on a Jeep Wrangler 4Xe and that is caused by the relief valve poppet opening/orifice sizing under some bypass command in the pump. That’s modified by something like a pump upgrade or relief upgrade like what PSC or Apex Designs sell for Jeeps currently. And very much what John Brindell from Agile referenced in an earlier post.

All this to say, Owl is looking to create and sell reliable solutions for sure. But this isn’t a necessity to upgrade. As well, the stock pumps can also fail. More modification does beget more risk and potential issue with warranty. I do understand that Ineos dealers may also start installing these kits.

Failures from the factory: my third hi-temp coolant tank replacement under warranty in a year of ownership (truly the worst part of the vehicle execution, outside of maybe the driveshaft issues ).