Open letter to Sir Jim and Lynne Calder at Ineos automotive

[Tenac]

I think some people should just sell the car. I don’t mean that in the “love it or leave it” blind faith sense, I just mean, it’s a shitty problem that is a real issue, but miles are racking up on lots of trucks and if it’s going to be something you perseverate on to an unhealthy extent to the point you can’t just mindlessly drive the car, sell the fucking thing. it’s the smart bet right now anyway.

You do have a point here. When I speak to our local dealer there is a lot more people who will never use this vehicle for what it is really meant for but rather for school runs, groceries, daily commute. When that market starts to take off the typical individual in today's market that has a front drive shaft let go even covered under warranty will drop it quickly. I don't expect my mother to have full confidence if something that major fails. And hoping it is a minor fail not total loss version lol. When that starts to spread Ineos will really have an issue on its hand to getting to new customer markets. Reality is they just need to spend some engineering time into finding a solution or redesign and get it done.

 

[AngusMacG]

Is the replacement boot any different than the original oem one ?
You’ve put on over 60k miles on the new one alone. How is that lasting significantly longer than the original?

I doubt there is any difference in the boot material between my original and current one. It was early on so I imagine no modifications were made. I would hedge to say it may be an issue with the lot on the molding at the manufacturer. It could also be the compounding of the rubber as well.

 

[MileHigh]

Been awhile since I delved into the front drive shaft issue, but it seems as ‘original sins’ for vehicles, there are lot bigger issues with the modern ‘psycho’ engines grenading themselves- that seems to be a far bigger issue and more expensive.

It seems a system of:
-Better boot inspections every oil change
-Pre-emptive replacement, especially for mod’d trucks
-Optimized boot material for replacement

Not downplaying the issue, but in the grand scheme of auto issues lately, this doesn’t seem to be the worst thing out there. They need to address it.

 

[CrazyOldMan]

Been awhile since I delved into the front drive shaft issue, but it seems as ‘original sins’ for vehicles, there are lot bigger issues with the modern ‘psycho’ engines grenading themselves- that seems to be a far bigger issue and more expensive.

It seems a system of:
-Better boot inspections every oil change
-Pre-emptive replacement, especially for mod’d trucks
-Optimized boot material for replacement

Not downplaying the issue, but in the grand scheme of auto issues lately, this doesn’t seem to be the worst thing out there. They need to address it.

That’s how I see it - it’s disappointing for sure and an extra hassle- but the issue could be worse. I would consider, if I were IA, some sort of warranty extension for this issue. It’s just not acceptable that the boot should go under normal use without a lift in just 2 years. Where they will REALLY have a problem is if someone has catastrophic drive shaft failure and an injury results. Then the FACT that they had stock failures and no maintenance guidance will become a problem in discovery, even if the driver making the claim had a lift.

 

[MileHigh]

Not to be too trendy, but the dealer should start taking a picture of the boots on every vehicle that comes in for any kind of maintenance. Then correlate those pictures with failures, maybe even run them through AI, to try to find if there’s some kind of predictor.

How much would it be to replace a boot preemptively? Considering all the other money I throw with this thing it may be worth it. I am slightly concerned that the quality of the install affecting the long entity, so in some ways, I don’t want to replace a part that’s actually not compromise, and potentially put a new part in and add a liability.

 

[Stu_Barnes]

The initial engagement was high after “the letter,” the start of AMA and the first 2 podcasts. I agree it’s disappointing since then, but my GUESS is they have some important steps ahead and we’re just in the quiet period before announcements. Fusilier plans, ODB2 access, service network plan - just my guesses and/or delusional fantasies. Maybe @Stu_Barnes and @Krabby know something but are under “press embargo” non-disclosure restrictions. Let’s see where things go this year - other than WWIII I mean, which seems to be well on its way.

Sadly no inside line right now, the latest video that IA posted about the pub came in to my private email before the press release did, and that was embargoed until later on........ go figure.

 

[Jeremy996]

Sadly no inside line right now, the latest video that IA posted about the pub came in to my private email before the press release did, and that was embargoed until later on........ go figure.

You'll probably find out that someone dropped a bollock - FaceBook/YouTube/ Social media generally has a problem with embargoes, often around the timezone it's published in. (Bitter experience with marketing).

 

[INEOS OG]

Well said Parb,

While I believe most of the gremlins will be sorted out the driveshaft issue must be sorted now. The aftermarket has solutions which are helpful but shouldn't be on us to replace and I would prefer the many nation's safety watchdogs stay out of our business by forcing recalls.

I get not wanting to spread the secret software sauce or Ineos getting in the way of stealerhips making money but for those of us who can, and choose not to let a dealer touch their wagons ever we shouldn't need to keep running back to them for whatever ails us.

Beyond that, I hope my fellow owners recognize we are really early in this extraordinary experiment but it is still an experiment that from a production, sales, and service perspective balances tens of thousands of tasks a day. Things fall off from day to day. I for one am pleased with my decision to buy / invest in Sir Jim's vision.

Would I recommend Ineos to anyone? Yes, but not just anyone and that might be by design. What I hope Sir Jim understands even at this level is that for those of us who have been following since the beginning are tired. Tired of what might be next around the corner while we could just as easily be delighted for what might be next.

 

[Sammyd]

Virtually all companies which have niche vehicles offer mainstream ones as well. I’m not sure IA can survive selling niche vehicles to true enthusiasts, who prefer to do their own maintenance. This is not a very viable business model.
The steering components falling apart and driveshaft issues are a true safety concern, which can cause real harm at 75 mph. Do we need to have documented deaths in a Grenny at 75 mph on the freeway due to catastrophic component failure first? That may result in a Stop Sale, instead of just a recall.
I’ve been doing quite a bit of research in order to get comfortable with a purchase. Still not there yet. Reading all the forum content, I don’t feel comfortable taking a Grenny on a long trip with the family. IA needs customers like us, pavement dwellers, who don’t do our own maintenance, to sell to.
Porsche can’t survive just by selling GT3s, RS, etc. to enthusiasts. They need to sell Cayennes, Panameras and Macans to subarbanites to survive.

One should not have to compromise on major component's functionality on a nearly $100,000 vehicle or see such components as a “wear items”, like wiper blades.

I do truly want to spec and own one.

Feel free to disagree.

 

[MileHigh]

I see reports that the Fusilier is back getting worked up, so that is another extension.

The whole automotive market is in the crapper- from sales to tech. Sales are way off, electrics are being abandoned, and even Toyota (TOYOTA!) engines are grenading- largely because of the desire for hyper-performance (fuel economy).

Also, ‘success’ I think has a different metric and measure for Sir Jim.

 

[Jeremy996]

Virtually all companies which have niche vehicles offer mainstream ones as well. I’m not sure IA can survive selling niche vehicles to true enthusiasts, who prefer to do their own maintenance. This is not a very viable business model.
The steering components falling apart and driveshaft issues are a true safety concern, which can cause real harm at 75 mph. Do we need to have documented deaths in a Grenny at 75 mph on the freeway due to catastrophic component failure first? That may result in a Stop Sale, instead of just a recall.
I’ve been doing quite a bit of research in order to get comfortable with a purchase. Still not there yet. Reading all the forum content, I don’t feel comfortable taking a Grenny on a long trip with the family. IA needs customers like us, pavement dwellers, who don’t do our own maintenance, to sell to.
Porsche can’t survive just by selling GT3s, RS, etc. to enthusiasts. They need to sell Cayennes, Panameras and Macans to subarbanites to survive.

One should not have to compromise on major component's functionality on a nearly $100,000 vehicle or see such components as a “wear items”, like wiper blades.

I do truly want to spec and own one.

Feel free to disagree.

Steering falling apart is an assembly issue and can be sorted by inspection and/or a PDI done properly. (My service agent was aware of a problem almost from outset, so I did not have a problem).

The driveshaft failure is not common across the userbase and there appears to be more than one failure scenario, so I think it is unlikely that Ineos will publically acknowledge an issue and provide a public solution. Any lift will lead to a failed warranty claim, so don't do it.

There is a lot of noise and fury on the forum, much of which is statistically insignificant; for a pavement princess, there is not too much to worry about compared to the alternatives. (All vehicles can have random failures and some systemic weaknesses).

 

[Tazzieman]

Reading all the forum content, I don’t feel comfortable taking a Grenny on a long trip with the family.

60,000km so far, with a very young family, towing a camper trailer in some of the most remote and treacherous areas in Europe and Asia. In an early MY2023 Ineos.
Matt P posts here regularly.