Lynn Calder questions agency modell

In a recently done interview with Lynn Calder she questions the agency sales model, which is in place in some (not all) countries. This model was choosen by many manufacturers when there were more demand for cars, then it is now. More and more OEMS turn away from the agency model.

When asked what Calder would do differently with the next vehicle, the conversation quickly turns to the topic of distribution and the journey of the Grenadier to the customer. Depending on the market, Ineos currently sells its vehicles through dealers (as in Germany), direct sales via the agency model, or through a general importer.
Calder has doubts about the success of the agency model. "It was conceived at a time when high demand for vehicles made implementation much easier," says Calder.
These conditions are no longer valid. As a new manufacturer without much experience, it is evident that there are good reasons to leave sales to the dealers. Additionally, the administrative burden was underestimated, such as customer service with call centers or vehicle registration in various markets.
Calder’s conclusion is, "I am not convinced that the agency model aligns OEMs and dealers in a way that benefits the customers."

AWo

 

[Sean326]

Whilst I understand your comment about selling more Grenadiers, they were never going to be a rival to almost all of those vehicles mentioned.
They were sold as low tech, and that is what they are.
If people want all of those features maybe it's not the vehicle for them.

I think it must be a US market idiosyncrasy that prospective owners want a Grenadier with the lot.


We too have multi hour (days in reality) driving, and the Grenadier beats my 200 series hands down.

In my jeep I can turn on my offroad lights with a single switch, in the Gren its a specific sequence and combination of 3 button pushes with a specific timing and sequence.
So to drive my gren in blissful silence before I go I have to scroll through pages of menus and deactivate various digital chirps and beeps.
There is actually buttons whose only job is to activate other buttons.
The Gren is anything but low tech and it seems to have mastered the art of intrusive tech... My '25 lexus RX 450 is extremely high tech but its tech is completely sublime... invisible it's nearly self driving but the only driver interface communication is subtle tactile input through the wheel where as the gren has no where near that capability yet more sound effects than all the star wars movies combined. Look i get off road capability, my day job is construction and property management, Its the odd week that i'm not getting vehicles and equipment into places that no machine has ever been. My weekend home is on one of the highest occupied peaks in the poconos and has a near vertical dirt road that is a 1/2 mile long and we can get snow from October through April. There are whole months of the year where we need a very capable off road vehicle to go to the grocery store. Look if we all don't want to own the answer to a jeopardy question "what was the vehicle produced from '22 to '27' by a british billionaire". If sir Jim can't sell enough of these then we all just bought edsels, deloreans or studebakers... try getting parts, support and crucial software updates after there is no infrastructure. And remember the computer that controls your low tech vehicle is not fully accessible by anyone but Ineos, yes it is a BMW engine but BMW dealers do not have the software to fully access ineos versions of the BMW controller that controls everything your low tech vehicle does.

 

[MrMike]

In my jeep I can turn on my offroad lights with a single switch, in the Gren its a specific sequence and combination of 3 button pushes with a specific timing and sequence.
So to drive my gren in blissful silence before I go I have to scroll through pages of menus and deactivate various digital chirps and beeps.
There is actually buttons whose only job is to activate other buttons.
The Gren is anything but low tech and it seems to have mastered the art of intrusive tech... My '25 lexus RX 450 is extremely high tech but its tech is completely sublime... invisible it's nearly self driving but the only driver interface communication is subtle tactile input through the wheel where as the gren has no where near that capability yet more sound effects than all the star wars movies combined. Look i get off road capability, my day job is construction and property management, Its the odd week that i'm not getting vehicles and equipment into places that no machine has ever been. My weekend home is on one of the highest occupied peaks in the poconos and has a near vertical dirt road that is a 1/2 mile long and we can get snow from October through April. There are whole months of the year where we need a very capable off road vehicle to go to the grocery store. Look if we all don't want to own the answer to a jeopardy question "what was the vehicle produced from '22 to '27' by a british billionaire". If sir Jim can't sell enough of these then we all just bought edsels, deloreans or studebakers... try getting parts, support and crucial software updates after there is no infrastructure. And remember the computer that controls your low tech vehicle is not fully accessible by anyone but Ineos, yes it is a BMW engine but BMW dealers do not have the software to fully access ineos versions of the BMW controller that controls everything your low tech vehicle does.

Fortunately we Australians have the low tech version with no ADAS and spotlights/lightbars available to be switched via high beam.
I don’t mean to denigrate those in the US but it seems you have been supplied relatively cheap vehicles with all the accessories available (unlike the Toyo 79 )
We don't get the "burger with the lot"

We all get the idea that we may end up with the Leyland P76 of the 2020s but that's the risk I suppose

 

[Zimm]

While many of us dreamed of a "low tech" car, there just isnt one made anymore. toss the car in reverse when the door close hasnt registered, and you get a rude jolt as the car goes into park. theres a billion system interactions in this car like that. 1/2 of what has ailed this rig, is the beta version coding it got released with.

people are confusing "low tech" with "lack of features and amenities".

 

[Sean326]

Fortunately we Australians have the low tech version with no ADAS and spotlights/lightbars available to be switched via high beam.
I don’t mean to denigrate those in the US but it seems you have been supplied relatively cheap vehicles with all the accessories available (unlike the Toyo 79 )
We don't get the "burger with the lot"

We all get the idea that we may end up with the Leyland P76 of the 2020s but that's the risk I suppose

Thanks Mr Mike,
I honestly didn't realize there was that big a difference in the design of the car variance per country... other than the fact you drive on the wrong side of the road .
I respect Australians but the success or failure of the brand is going to be based on USA sales.
USA is the second largest vehicle market in the world after China, 30M/year china vs 15M/year USA, Australia is 1.2m/year. But the real driver is the breakdown of vehicles is that 80% of annual vehicle sales in USA are trucks and SUV's where in China that class is just 51% of sales. All the european countries combined are about 1/3 of the vehicle market of the USA and the ratio of SUV's and trucks is flipped to 80% cars and 20% trucks/suv's.
According to my dealer i'm the poster boy for their demographic, over 50, affluent own multiple vehicles and have a knowledge and nostalgia for a vehicle that was only sold in this county for a few years in '90's and was never that popular.
Put into the mix that my Trialmaster did not have all the options boxes checked and came out at $90,000.00, many of the vehicles on my dealers lot had more boxes checked and were over $100,000.00. One that was for sale but was a also a one off demonstrator of future options like portal axels etc... was over $200,000.00.
So the future of Ineos Grenadiers are really the higher end USA SUV buyers. In the price range of $75,0000.00 to $150,000.00 you have Jeep wrangler, multiple BMW's, Lexus's, mercedes including base G-wagon, ford broncos to navigators... and the list goes on the summation is that all these options are viable for buyers. they don't have the quirks we few current owners are willing to tolerate. Sorry for the dissertation, I Love this stuff but in summery If Ineos wants to be in the car business as anything more than a hobby for a billionaire they are going to have to step up their game. They're competing with some very high quality vehicles with very high functioning support that most buyers consider typical. Orders of magnitude beyond what Ineos offers now.

 

[Stu_Barnes]

Thanks Mr Mike,
I honestly didn't realize there was that big a difference in the design of the car variance per country... other than the fact you drive on the wrong side of the road .
I respect Australians but the success or failure of the brand is going to be based on USA sales.
USA is the second largest vehicle market in the world after China, 30M/year china vs 15M/year USA, Australia is 1.2m/year. But the real driver is the breakdown of vehicles is that 80% of annual vehicle sales in USA are trucks and SUV's where in China that class is just 51% of sales. All the european countries combined are about 1/3 of the vehicle market of the USA and the ratio of SUV's and trucks is flipped to 80% cars and 20% trucks/suv's.
According to my dealer i'm the poster boy for their demographic, over 50, affluent own multiple vehicles and have a knowledge and nostalgia for a vehicle that was only sold in this county for a few years in '90's and was never that popular.
Put into the mix that my Trialmaster did not have all the options boxes checked and came out at $90,000.00, many of the vehicles on my dealers lot had more boxes checked and were over $100,000.00. One that was for sale but was a also a one off demonstrator of future options like portal axels etc... was over $200,000.00.
So the future of Ineos Grenadiers are really the higher end USA SUV buyers. In the price range of $75,0000.00 to $150,000.00 you have Jeep wrangler, multiple BMW's, Lexus's, mercedes including base G-wagon, ford broncos to navigators... and the list goes on the summation is that all these options are viable for buyers. they don't have the quirks we few current owners are willing to tolerate. Sorry for the dissertation, I Love this stuff but in summery If Ineos wants to be in the car business as anything more than a hobby for a billionaire they are going to have to step up their game. They're competing with some very high quality vehicles with very high functioning support that most buyers consider typical. Orders of magnitude beyond what Ineos offers now.

What he said, I think the average age is 57 according to @Jean Mercier. But yes, there’s lots of choice here in this process range and they had better clip along sorting out these issues to keep things going in the right direction. Which from what I’ve been hearing is how it’s going at Hambach.

 

[Sean326]

This is admittedly a small anecdotal item but I've been kind of amazed as i've browsed the forum both here and the pages on FB the lack of interactions the company has with the owners. Everything the owners discuss seems to be based on articles, rumors and dealers who say they get almost no news or feedback from Ineos HQ. I'm on other forums and pages for my other hobbies and passions, watch collecting, technical scuba diving etc. In those areas its common for the manufacturers to have a presence, check in occasionally with new products and respond when customers/owners ask questions or make comments. That concept doesn't seem to exist in this world.
Stay with me, these two concepts tie together....
I understand the historic and nostalgic roots of the Grenadier, that's partially why I bought one, I loved the defender.
But the 2000 defender sold for $14,000.00 per ai which equates to about $25,000.00 in todays $.
My grenadier (with checking several boxes) came in at $90,000.00, that's the cost of a pretty high end SUV, comparable to a Porsche cayenne, BMW X7. That said what surprised me the most was the intrusive nature of the ADAS system yet its complete lack of utility (short of a head on crash that it claims to try to prevent 2 seconds prior to collision). Essentially a system with the capabilities common to the industry in 2010 vehicles, not 2024/25. Yet i did see evidence that they were improving the system in future models from various sources such as a calif. dealers webpage mentioning blind spot monitor and adaptive cruise control. I asked my dealer also on this forum and on FB but no one had any definitive answer.
So I took a shot at asking customer service on the main corporate website. I got a pretty comprehensive response within 24 hours. I asked specifically about upgrades in the'26 model year.

CASE REFERENCE: 179818​

Hi Sean,

The new ADAS update includes the following features:

Emergency Lane Keep - active lane keeping functionality instead of merely an alert sound.

Autonomous Emergency Braking - enhancement to include pedestrians and cyclists in the existing feature.

Driver Monitoring System - an inward-facing camera designed to assess driver attentiveness.

Intelligent Speed Assist - the option to deactivate directly from the home screen.

At this time, we do not have information regarding the release date of this update, but I trust this information is helpful.

Please do not hesitate to contact us if you need any further assistance.

Thanks,

Grace

INEOS Grenadier Customer Service

 

[Tom109]

Happy I have an early model.

 

[landmannnn]

This is admittedly a small anecdotal item but I've been kind of amazed as i've browsed the forum both here and the pages on FB the lack of interactions the company has with the owners. Everything the owners discuss seems to be based on articles, rumors and dealers who say they get almost no news or feedback from Ineos HQ. I'm on other forums and pages for my other hobbies and passions, watch collecting, technical scuba diving etc. In those areas its common for the manufacturers to have a presence, check in occasionally with new products and respond when customers/owners ask questions or make comments. That concept doesn't seem to exist in this world.
Stay with me, these two concepts tie together....
I understand the historic and nostalgic roots of the Grenadier, that's partially why I bought one, I loved the defender.
But the 2000 defender sold for $14,000.00 per ai which equates to about $25,000.00 in todays $.
My grenadier (with checking several boxes) came in at $90,000.00, that's the cost of a pretty high end SUV, comparable to a Porsche cayenne, BMW X7. That said what surprised me the most was the intrusive nature of the ADAS system yet its complete lack of utility (short of a head on crash that it claims to try to prevent 2 seconds prior to collision). Essentially a system with the capabilities common to the industry in 2010 vehicles, not 2024/25. Yet i did see evidence that they were improving the system in future models from various sources such as a calif. dealers webpage mentioning blind spot monitor and adaptive cruise control. I asked my dealer also on this forum and on FB but no one had any definitive answer.
So I took a shot at asking customer service on the main corporate website. I got a pretty comprehensive response within 24 hours. I asked specifically about upgrades in the'26 model year.

CASE REFERENCE: 179818​

Hi Sean,

The new ADAS update includes the following features:

Emergency Lane Keep - active lane keeping functionality instead of merely an alert sound.

Autonomous Emergency Braking - enhancement to include pedestrians and cyclists in the existing feature.

Driver Monitoring System - an inward-facing camera designed to assess driver attentiveness.

Intelligent Speed Assist - the option to deactivate directly from the home screen.

At this time, we do not have information regarding the release date of this update, but I trust this information is helpful.

Please do not hesitate to contact us if you need any further assistance.

Thanks,

Grace

INEOS Grenadier Customer Service

You make some valid points.

I don't often see car manufacturers getting involved in forums. Maybe they do in some, if they are prepared for the irrational negative comments maybe.

On the old Defender, it had gone from £14k in 2000 to £35k in 2015, so I don't think general inflation applies. 1960's technology probably kept the manufacturing costs low at that time, circa 110.horsepower also meant that components didn't need to be very robust.

 

[255/85]

Happy I have an early model.

Me too!

@Sean326 - The "How much tech is too much" question has been debated here before. The pro-tech crowd want it as long as it won't disable the vehicle when it inevitably fails. The rest see it as a complete distraction and unneeded complexity. If you want tech you should be looking elsewhere.

 

[Tom109]

You make some valid points….

On the old Defender, it had gone from £14k in 2000 to £35k in 2015, so I don't think general inflation applies.

Also keep the market in mind. There was never a 14k (£ or $) old Defender in the US.

 

[Sean326]

Me too!

@Sean326 - The "How much tech is too much" question has been debated here before. The pro-tech crowd want it as long as it won't disable the vehicle when it inevitably fails. The rest see it as a complete distraction and unneeded complexity. If you want tech you should be looking elsewhere.

It's got tech, a complex computer interface that a BMW dealer can't connect to that controls the engine and transmission, more beeps clicks and chirps than all the star wars movies combined. Yet with all the drama of the tech it has it does surprisingly little. The only thing worse than low tech is high tech that acts low tech. The last real defender was sold in 2000 for around $14,000.00 Thats $25k today. $25k today is very low tech vehicle. The Grenadier sells for $90,000.00 for $90,000 the tech should work or sir jim isn't going to sell too many. When defender aficianados are played out and ineos shuts down cause the billionaire gets tired of his expensive hobby so will your ineos without updates and maintenance of its tech. My '09 jeep is low tech and honestly will go anywhere my grenadier will.

 

[Sean326]

Also keep the market in mind. There was never a 14k (£ or $) old Defender in the US.

yes you are correct, but also that's another problem, the market. Ineos needs the usa market to sell enough vehicles to reach the critical mass to keep the company viable. We are the second largest vehicle market in the world and 80% of those sold are trucks and SUV's. The problem with that is we never really had defenders, just a few years in the '90's that they were available. The few USA people who are classic defender enthusiasts are not enough to support the brand based solely on nostalgia. they have to be functionally competitive with other high end SUV's for americans to buy them. That means they have to have tech that works and adds value. Or they need to get the unit price down to a base model Jeep or Bronco $30,000.00..... not $90,000.00.

 

[Sean326]

Also keep the market in mind. There was never a 14k (£ or $) old Defender in the US.

Yes, thats the biggest challenge for ineos, true defenders were only sold in the USA for a few years and never really got traction or a large following... let alone a cult following. That means they actually need to compete against other high end SUV's just on their own merits.

 

[Tom109]

Yes, thats the biggest challenge for ineos, true defenders were only sold in the USA for a few years and never really got traction or a large following... let alone a cult following. That means they actually need to compete against other high end SUV's just on their own merits.

Umm, they have a huge cult following and command big dollar price tags, that shift very nicely to Gren prices. Not enough to count on defender fans alone, but the vehicle is well known (even when people think a Series is a D).

 

[Zimm]

Here's some real first hand witness numbers.

My defender 110NAS changed hands for $96,000 with 50k odd miles in 2012.

New in 1993 it was $40,000. Thats $89,108.27 January to January 2025 in today's money according to the US Govt CPI calculator, not some guess.

That seems about equal right?

WRONG, That car was and is still a complete fucking cocksocket pile of shit no matter how you cut it. There isn't single piece of an original defender that wasn't pushed out of an ass and assembled by the slow. From the crappy transmission, to the garbage interior, to the hvac only capable of 10* below ambient, to the engines that would slip sleeves if over heated, to the driving position good only for midgets. ( sorry to any midgets on board). AND it was built on paid off tooling. It came with a roll cage because otherwise you would die in roll, the only issue being, the roll cage was bolted together safety devices crap. Wrapping paper tubing is stronger. So I guess you died on the second turn instead of the first. A Harley is safer head on, and that's with your sturdy farmer wife behind you.

The only thing dumber than comparing these two cars, are the wanker twats that pay 150g for a "refurbished" one with a GM drivetrain (awesome drive-train, but not expensive) and glued on shitty leather interiors.

The whole appeal of this rig, was it being be a Defender in spirit, NOT reality, thank fucking god.

 

[Stu_Barnes]

In those areas its common for the manufacturers to have a presence

Watch this space….

 

[Jiman01]

I remember clearly in 1991 buying my first Wrangler Sahara for @$14,500, before there was a Rubicon trim, making the Sahara their top trim. I was out of college and as much as I wanted a Defender 90, it was almost double the price of the Wrangler, at @$26k. It might as well have been $90k because there was no way I could afford to pay double what I bought the Wrangler for.

I concede I may be on the “luckier” side of having problems with my Grenadier but even with the few problems I have had, I have a hard time believing that the other models @Sean326 has noted don’t have their own problems, some more significant than anything the Grenadier is having…from much more established brands. I am also on many forums from watches, to cars and lots in-between and have never had anyone more than a CS rep on the forums and that's even rare.

I do agree that as a start up INEOS has to do it better than the established brands to make it. Those brands have market share, brand recognition, customer base, established supply chains, dealer network, etc… Aside from taking care of those that took a chance on INEOS from jump, making the brand more well known has to be a priority. Interestingly, after Joe Rogan talked about it on his podcast, I had co-workers, even my boss, curious and asking me questions about my truck.

Hopefully with the recent interactions between @Tom D and Lynne, were’re closer to having a better truck and better company/customer relationship.

 

[Max]

I do agree that as a start up INEOS has to do it better than the established brands to make it. Those brands have market share, brand recognition, customer base, established supply chains, dealer network, etc… Aside from taking care of those that took a chance on INEOS from jump, making the brand more well known has to be a priority. Interestingly, after Joe Rogan talked about it on his podcast, I had co-workers, even my boss, curious and asking me questions about my truck.

Hopefully with the recent interactions between @Tom D and Lynne, were’re closer to having a better truck and better company/customer relationship.

I agree with your thinking that Ineos has to do better than the established brands.
In my opinion they have in the engineering, parts selection, build and drive quality but they are still feeling the water as to what they have to build into the product with regards to regulations and what the customer wants.
I think that Ineos entered the market in an interesting way by wetting our appetites and feeding us what to expect without timelines. IMO Ineos have been working on the manual for years and obviously have it at a semi release stage and testing it on the forum, thanks Stu.
We had watched the demo models and driven them and then spec our vehicles to our wants, is that normal? The TrialMaster is the winner IMO maybe bias but they knew what we wanted straight up. This car is not for the masses but for those who know what they want..maybe something of quality to last.
The social media has been their main support arm which works two ways, one the vehicle finds you and the other is you find the vehicle. Manufactures would be very careful about exposing their people directly to the venom on the FB and forums attached to their product but the customer service line seems to be working better from my take on it...happy motoring

 

[255/85]

.....and that's with your sturdy farmer wife behind you.

Somehow that's the kindest thing I've ever heard you say.

 

[Sean326]

Umm, they have a huge cult following and command big dollar price tags, that shift very nicely to Gren prices. Not enough to count on defender fans alone, but the vehicle is well known (even when people think a Series is a D).

I respectfully disagree, there are a couple shops that take old defenders and turn em into $200,000+ works of art and move a few dozen vehicles annually. Then there is the other end of the spectrum, FB marketplace and autotrader where hundreds of barn finds, bondo machines and varios right hand drive one offs move for $thousands to a couple tens of thousands for ones that you can't see the road through the floorboards. That is not the numbers ineos needs to survive and may even hurt them. If a true defender nostalgist can be satisfied by a not too rusty $20,000 '93 to '97 (the 4 years that real defenders were actually sold in the USA) they are not buying a $90,000.00 modern re-imagined version... so we are once again back to the buyer they need are the ones who are also looking at other competitively priced SUV's. In the usa annually there are over 12,000,000 SUV's and trucks sold. By far the largest SUV market in the world. Ineos just needs a fraction of that. Thats the great news, the bad is that every other manufacturer in the world wants that fraction too. My only point is this, I like my Gren and i want to have parts and corporate/dealer support for it in the future. I'm trying to envision a future with that and i'm having trouble seeing that at the current trajectory.