Land Rover feeling the Heat?

[curb-optional]

LR looks like it's catching up to demand. Houston dealers actually have in stock inventory of the ND.

the JLR production of ND may be catching up a bit, but unfortunately I think it's because JLR is collapsing a buying base intentionally as they fashion ND to look like a RR trim option. JLR is limiting who wants to buy a ND to begin with, so the ND inventory will likely build; but they are destroying demand.... The ND has become so delicate looking with model upgrades that fewer buyers may be willing to take it off road much (because of costs to repair increase the more it looks like a RR exterior). The G is great off road when you look at it on paper, but who spends $150k and then treats it like a Wrangler Rubicon? I put the G an academic off road SUV choice, and I think ND is going that direction. The Grenadier is not about academic discussions, it's about actually being able to beat the SUV up a bit as you drive it around. This puts it more Bronco, Wrangler, 4Runner for market buyers. JLR fashioning a ND to look like a RR misses a key selling point to older Land Rovers: what good is a ND you have to treat like a RR? It loses a part of the market as soon as you realize that keeping it on the pavement is the most likely outcome given the cost and appearance. The GX Over Trail - as well as the new LC - have angles, which is more likely to hide dents and dings. I get it though, JLR doesn't want folks to do stuff off road with the ND, so they give it a RR silhouette and figure you'll likely drive it like a RR anyways, so the off road stats become academic. If JLR wanted ND to go where the GX is likely to go, JLR would have 17 or 18" rims with big wheel arches and some additional protection. It doesn't, suggesting it's not designed for extended rough driving uses. Their loss, as that's how the GX is going...

As for who buys Ineos when Sir Jim is done with it? BMW is a good guess, but given it's now in some Mercedes manufacturing facility anyways, I was thinking if Jim were successful at it, maybe Mercedes would buy it back?! It wouldn't directly compete with G as that is a confused choice to use off road, whereas the Grenadier is built for it. If you want to impress your friends you are meeting at a restaurant, you drive to the valet in a G wagon - that's the point of the G - that's why folks buy them. If you want to dent up an SUV and drive it over stuff, the Grenadier is more reasonable choice. I think Mercedes could carry and sell both lines if it wanted to. As for BMW, so much of their advertising is focused on 0-60 speed. An off road adventure SUV need not be quick and it may be a difficult challenge for BMW to keep downplaying speed and driving dynamics enough to keep their focus on durability & reliability after slight misuse. It's not how the SUV performs under perfect conditions, it's weather the SUV will continue to perform after bad conditions that you probably should have avoided.

 

[DaveB]

the JLR production of ND may be catching up a bit, but unfortunately I think it's because JLR is collapsing a buying base intentionally as they fashion ND to look like a RR trim option. JLR is limiting who wants to buy a ND to begin with, so the ND inventory will likely build; but they are destroying demand.... The ND has become so delicate looking with model upgrades that fewer buyers may be willing to take it off road much (because of costs to repair increase the more it looks like a RR exterior). The G is great off road when you look at it on paper, but who spends $150k and then treats it like a Wrangler Rubicon? I put the G an academic off road SUV choice, and I think ND is going that direction. The Grenadier is not about academic discussions, it's about actually being able to beat the SUV up a bit as you drive it around. This puts it more Bronco, Wrangler, 4Runner for market buyers. JLR fashioning a ND to look like a RR misses a key selling point to older Land Rovers: what good is a ND you have to treat like a RR? It loses a part of the market as soon as you realize that keeping it on the pavement is the most likely outcome given the cost and appearance. The GX Over Trail - as well as the new LC - have angles, which is more likely to hide dents and dings. I get it though, JLR doesn't want folks to do stuff off road with the ND, so they give it a RR silhouette and figure you'll likely drive it like a RR anyways, so the off road stats become academic. If JLR wanted ND to go where the GX is likely to go, JLR would have 17 or 18" rims with big wheel arches and some additional protection. It doesn't, suggesting it's not designed for extended rough driving uses. Their loss, as that's how the GX is going...

As for who buys Ineos when Sir Jim is done with it? BMW is a good guess, but given it's now in some Mercedes manufacturing facility anyways, I was thinking if Jim were successful at it, maybe Mercedes would buy it back?! It wouldn't directly compete with G as that is a confused choice to use off road, whereas the Grenadier is built for it. If you want to impress your friends you are meeting at a restaurant, you drive to the valet in a G wagon - that's the point of the G - that's why folks buy them. If you want to dent up an SUV and drive it over stuff, the Grenadier is more reasonable choice. I think Mercedes could carry and sell both lines if it wanted to. As for BMW, so much of their advertising is focused on 0-60 speed. An off road adventure SUV need not be quick and it may be a difficult challenge for BMW to keep downplaying speed and driving dynamics enough to keep their focus on durability & reliability after slight misuse. It's not how the SUV performs under perfect conditions, it's weather the SUV will continue to perform after bad conditions that you probably should have avoided.

Mercedes is going all electric in the majority of markets so that could be a problem.
Toyota could look at it as a part of the 70 series.

 

[tnkatoy]

There have been a lot of good points here, however I don’t agree that JLR isn’t worried about Ineos, if they weren't, JLR wouldn't have tried to stop the Grenadier in court.

Defender used to be in a niche market that it pretty much had to itself, it built the legacy that new Defender is trading on.

Ineos has not only taken over the old Defender niche, but is aggressively moving product to petty much completely remove old Defender from its traditional stomping grounds. If Ineos slots in to where Defender used to be, Ineos will take over the perception of Defender, and with it, the perception of the legacy, of Defender.

The new Defender market is highly competitive and fickle, losing it's legacy to Grenadier will be a big loss for the perception of Defender, and the new Defender market is all about image, which will be a big reason why JLR tried to stop Grenadier in court.

My personal experience … a colleague has just bought a $185,000 Defender, I jokingly commented ‘that’s the car I didn’t buy’ (which is true), it’s the first time he heard of Grenadier … unfortunately he now regrets buying the Defender.

That’s what JLR should we worried about - Defender owners feeling subordinate to Grenadiers!

What surprises me about a lot of the the registration figures posted, is that Grenadiers are already at 10% or more, of Defenders, that will have the attention of more than JLR.

Now Grenadier is here and taking over traditional Defender markets, JLR is going to have to fight to keep the image of Defender relevant, but up against the wealth of Sir Jim Ratcliffe, I don't like JLR's chances.

 

[DenisM]

I 'd add that it's more than the wealth of Sir Jim R. It's the current value proposition of the Grenadier brand and the underlying frustration of would be LR owners of "what might have been". Arrogance and greed have, by and large, been the hallmarks exhibited by JLR regional administrations and dealers for years. Not for nothing have rusted on LR owners referred to them universally as LR "Stealers".
I can't speak highly enough of the Australian Ineos corporate team. They're first class! ( and I'm referred to sometimes as a cynical/ cranky old man in a hurry!!

 

[rovie]

I 'd add that it's more than the wealth of Sir Jim R. It's the current value proposition of the Grenadier brand and the underlying frustration of would be LR owners of "what might have been". Arrogance and greed have, by and large, been the hallmarks exhibited by JLR regional administrations and dealers for years. Not for nothing have rusted on LR owners referred to them universally as LR "Stealers".
I can't speak highly enough of the Australian Ineos corporate team. They're first class! ( and I'm referred to sometimes as a cynical/ cranky old man in a hurry!!

I can understand all this very well. For decades I was very loyal to Land Rover. You will find the green oval and more everywhere with me. The most recent documents on the walls are from 2016. For me personally, the end of this extraordinary story, for which I have great respect for those responsible back then. For Land Rover's 60th birthday, we sat with Roger Crathorne and Geoff Miller (they were still "makers") and thought about the future of Land Rover.
Today I am no longer impressed by what JLR is doing. I don't follow it any more. I still live in the world of Land Rover of yesterday and the world of INEOS Greandier of today and tomorrow, both of which complement each other well.
And I have the greatest respect for Sir Jim Ratcliffe and his project. He could have sat in the only empty chair in the Gaydon Motor Museum in 2008 with a clear conscience.

 

[DaBull]

I can understand all this very well. For decades I was very loyal to Land Rover. You will find the green oval and more everywhere with me. The most recent documents on the walls are from 2016. For me personally, the end of this extraordinary story, for which I have great respect for those responsible back then. For Land Rover's 60th birthday, we sat with Roger Crathorne and Geoff Miller (they were still "makers") and thought about the future of Land Rover.
Today I am no longer impressed by what JLR is doing. I don't follow it any more. I still live in the world of Land Rover of yesterday and the world of INEOS Greandier of today and tomorrow, both of which complement each other well.
And I have the greatest respect for Sir Jim Ratcliffe and his project. He could have sat in the only empty chair in the Gaydon Motor Museum in 2008 with a clear conscience.

Hi Rovie, Like you I am moving on from JLR. My experience with JLR started with a 2011 RRS and then progressed to a 2013 RRS, 2019 RRS and now a 2020 ND. I have been impressed by all of these vehicles including the ND and the customer service I received. I am bidding them fair well for now and am looking forward to taking delivery of my Grenadier Trial Master sometime in Q1/2024. There may come a time when I am not as young as I am now, (I am 71 now), that I head back to JLR knowing that there will be another vehicle that tickles my bones and provides miles of smiles and perhaps a seat massage too...DaBull

 

[rovie]

Hi Rovie, Like you I am moving on from JLR. My experience with JLR started with a 2011 RRS and then progressed to a 2013 RRS, 2019 RRS and now a 2020 ND. I have been impressed by all of these vehicles including the ND and the customer service I received. I am bidding them fair well for now and am looking forward to taking delivery of my Grenadier Trial Master sometime in Q1/2024. There may come a time when I am not as young as I am now, (I am 71 now), that I head back to JLR knowing that there will be another vehicle that tickles my bones and provides miles of smiles and perhaps a seat massage too...DaBull

Hi @DaBull , yes, as our friend from the UK says, "Never say never!".
Certainly JLR's vehicles are good and, depending on the model, also exceed the value and capabilities of the Grenadier. I went to see the new Range Rover SV in the UK this summer. Certainly it tickles more than the bone.
But it's in a whole different league.
I just wanted to say that JLR's philosophy no longer appeals to me at the moment. But who knows. Maybe when I get older I'll want to be stirred as well as shaken.

 

[Tom109]

I too carry a green oval and will continue to do so, just not for the McGovern-design-shift over the past 20-years. I’ll happily drive my IIa off into my sunset, but anything current,

LR is dead.

 

[rovie]

I too carry a green oval and will continue to do so, just not for the McGovern-design-shift over the past 20-years. I’ll happily drive my IIa off into my sunset, but anything current,

LR is dead.

But Gerry did his job. That has to be said in all fairness.

 

[Tom109]

But Gerry did his job. That has to be said in all fairness.

Yes, their cars have been quite successful.

 

[Voader - Oudersopzwier]

I would like to hear your opinion. I am wondering, as I think this will be the case in the near future. What about the prices of the old defenders on the market? I have a TD5 from 2007, bought it for a fair price and it's a keeper. I still love to drive it.
But prices of old defenders are sometimes going trough the roof. Especially the refurbished one's. If I see those prices, they not far off a brand new Grenadier or even more expensive. In my opinion the old defenders will lose their value at a certain point. As there is a much younger and more refined alternative with the Grenadier? Except if you really want one as an oldtimer.

 

[Simon C]

Interestingly I was offered a 24hr test drive of a New Defender this week having previously looked at one 2yrs ago (no delivery date was possible at that time) - anyhow after doing 5000 miles in the Grenadier I thought I'd take them up on it just to see.

My observations were as follows:

1. Salesman didn't know what a Grenadier was when he asked which vehicle I was leaving overnight (his Manager did and came and had a nose)
2. Two techies came out to look at it but didn't know what it was!
3. My demo Defender was dirty, hadn't been cleaned inside and had hardly any fuel in it
4. I was asked to fit a steering wheel lock to the Defender overnight which was left in the footwell - Salesman commented that it was quite easy to steal them!
5. Fuel consumption was similar to my IG - around 23mpg (UK) petrol - Defender was a P300 non hybrid
6. Defender wallowed over bumps and leaned heavily on cornering which surprised me after having my IG for so long - Defender was on air suspension
7. Defender was slightly less noisy at 70mph but not much
8. Overall I just wasn't so impressed and my passengers neither - they all prefer the IG
9. Price for the spec I would have on a Defender would be £79k - I paid just under £59k for my IG (Utility with lots of options) - admitidly now it would be closer to £70k

So ultimately for me the IG wins for me and I had a smile when I got back in it

 

[klarie]

Interestingly I was offered a 24hr test drive of a New Defender this week having previously looked at one 2yrs ago (no delivery date was possible at that time) - anyhow after doing 5000 miles in the Grenadier I thought I'd take them up on it just to see.

My observations were as follows:

1.

? Submitted to early ?

 

[acwiltshire]

Interestingly I was offered a 24hr test drive of a New Defender this week having previously looked at one 2yrs ago (no delivery date was possible at that time) - anyhow after doing 5000 miles in the Grenadier I thought I'd take them up on it just to see.

My observations were as follows:

1.

Is this 1. Nothing worth observing !

 

[Simon C]

Is this 1. Nothing worth observing !

Sorry hit the wrong key by accident - now complete!

 

[klarie]

Interestingly I was offered a 24hr test drive of a New Defender this week having previously looked at one 2yrs ago (no delivery date was possible at that time) - anyhow after doing 5000 miles in the Grenadier I thought I'd take them up on it just to see.

My observations were as follows:

1. Salesman didn't know what a Grenadier was when he asked which vehicle I was leaving overnight (his Manager did and came and had a nose)
2. Two techies came out to look at it but didn't know what it was!
3. My demo Defender was dirty, hadn't been cleaned inside and had hardly any fuel in it
4. I was asked to fit a steering wheel lock to the Defender overnight which was left in the footwell - Salesman commented that it was quite easy to steal them!
5. Fuel consumption was similar to my IG - around 23mpg (UK) petrol - Defender was a P300 non hybrid
6. Defender wallowed over bumps and leaned heavily on cornering which surprised me after having my IG for so long - Defender was on air suspension
7. Defender was slightly less noisy at 70mph but not much
8. Overall I just wasn't so impressed and my passengers neither - they all prefer the IG
9. Price for the spec I would have on a Defender would be £79k - I paid just under £59k for my IG (Utility with lots of options) - admitidly now it would be closer to £70k

So ultimately for me the IG wins for me and I had a smile when I got back in it

1. To me he is lying.
2. Lying too. - or living on the dark side of the moon. Almost anyone who is a bit in offroad knows about the existence. And any LR person. (and they all had an opinion to it.. pos / neg)
3. Either not interested in you - because they considered you will not purchasing one or simply to nosy.
4. This is indeed new to me. - But who will steal an ND?
5. Okay.
6. Thats on air...
7. Okay..
8. You were used to a real utility - not a SUV driver. - How about any gadgets and drivers aids such as dead ankle, Lane assist etc. Any effects? Was the ND trying to nudge you?
9 Yeah in Germany they were requesting some 85kEuro to get one. Nah..

 

[curb-optional]

Interestingly I was offered a 24hr test drive of a New Defender this week having previously looked at one 2yrs ago (no delivery date was possible at that time) - anyhow after doing 5000 miles in the Grenadier I thought I'd take them up on it just to see.

My observations were as follows:

1. Salesman didn't know what a Grenadier was when he asked which vehicle I was leaving overnight (his Manager did and came and had a nose)
2. Two techies came out to look at it but didn't know what it was!
3. My demo Defender was dirty, hadn't been cleaned inside and had hardly any fuel in it
4. I was asked to fit a steering wheel lock to the Defender overnight which was left in the footwell - Salesman commented that it was quite easy to steal them!
5. Fuel consumption was similar to my IG - around 23mpg (UK) petrol - Defender was a P300 non hybrid
6. Defender wallowed over bumps and leaned heavily on cornering which surprised me after having my IG for so long - Defender was on air suspension
7. Defender was slightly less noisy at 70mph but not much
8. Overall I just wasn't so impressed and my passengers neither - they all prefer the IG
9. Price for the spec I would have on a Defender would be £79k - I paid just under £59k for my IG (Utility with lots of options) - admitidly now it would be closer to £70k

So ultimately for me the IG wins for me and I had a smile when I got back in it

Nice to see comments on the ND vs. IG comparison, so thanks! I'm also happy you love your IG, and seems like you made the right decision for yourself. The LR dealership not knowing about Ineos is a total joke. Many dealership owners manage multiple car brands. It's possible whoever Ineos has selling Grenadier, some of those dealership owners may also sell other car brands (at other dealerships of course).

As for your passenger being as comfortable in the IG as ND, that's one of my concerns. The ND is really comfortable for all passengers - front & back. I don't get your "wallowing" over bumps - maybe you mean something different? My current LR has no air suspension and even that handles bumps fine. It doesn't wallow - if anything, you don't know the bump you just took because the springs absorb it as you'd hope. Do you have anything to add on one of the major differences: IG steering vs. ND - pros & cons on the highway, etc? How did the two compare with congested city driving and sharp corners? thanks.

 

[Bryan]

the JLR production of ND may be catching up a bit, but unfortunately I think it's because JLR is collapsing a buying base intentionally as they fashion ND to look like a RR trim option. JLR is limiting who wants to buy a ND to begin with, so the ND inventory will likely build; but they are destroying demand.... The ND has become so delicate looking with model upgrades that fewer buyers may be willing to take it off road much (because of costs to repair increase the more it looks like a RR exterior). The G is great off road when you look at it on paper, but who spends $150k and then treats it like a Wrangler Rubicon? I put the G an academic off road SUV choice, and I think ND is going that direction. The Grenadier is not about academic discussions, it's about actually being able to beat the SUV up a bit as you drive it around. This puts it more Bronco, Wrangler, 4Runner for market buyers. JLR fashioning a ND to look like a RR misses a key selling point to older Land Rovers: what good is a ND you have to treat like a RR? It loses a part of the market as soon as you realize that keeping it on the pavement is the most likely outcome given the cost and appearance. The GX Over Trail - as well as the new LC - have angles, which is more likely to hide dents and dings. I get it though, JLR doesn't want folks to do stuff off road with the ND, so they give it a RR silhouette and figure you'll likely drive it like a RR anyways, so the off road stats become academic. If JLR wanted ND to go where the GX is likely to go, JLR would have 17 or 18" rims with big wheel arches and some additional protection. It doesn't, suggesting it's not designed for extended rough driving uses. Their loss, as that's how the GX is going...

As for who buys Ineos when Sir Jim is done with it? BMW is a good guess, but given it's now in some Mercedes manufacturing facility anyways, I was thinking if Jim were successful at it, maybe Mercedes would buy it back?! It wouldn't directly compete with G as that is a confused choice to use off road, whereas the Grenadier is built for it. If you want to impress your friends you are meeting at a restaurant, you drive to the valet in a G wagon - that's the point of the G - that's why folks buy them. If you want to dent up an SUV and drive it over stuff, the Grenadier is more reasonable choice. I think Mercedes could carry and sell both lines if it wanted to. As for BMW, so much of their advertising is focused on 0-60 speed. An off road adventure SUV need not be quick and it may be a difficult challenge for BMW to keep downplaying speed and driving dynamics enough to keep their focus on durability & reliability after slight misuse. It's not how the SUV performs under perfect conditions, it's weather the SUV will continue to perform after bad conditions that you probably should have avoided.

Mercedes and BMW make tons of money, why would they want to buy Ineos Automotive? JLR would make more sense because they are bankrupt and maybe the Grenadier would be a good financial aid for them.

 

[klarie]

@curb-optional strange questions you re asking?
Grenadier in congested city?
Highway / Motorway use?
If that is the primary purpose Grenadier perhaps is a wrong decision.
Get a Prius instead.
@Bryan BMW, Mercedes Stellantis etc purchase what might fit im their portfolio and serves a market they want to be in.

 

[stratego]

Mercedes and BMW make tons of money, why would they want to buy Ineos Automotive? JLR would make more sense because they are bankrupt and maybe the Grenadier would be a good financial aid for them.

Large OEM groups buy and sell brands all the time, especially small, sub-scale brands that need a large parent to be viable. Remember that 15 years ago, Volvo, Mazda, Land Rover and Aston Martin were all under one roof: Ford!