UK & Ireland Ineos Grenadier and UK HMRC BIK classifications for 2 and 5 seat Commercials

[Cheshire cat]

Bearing in mind UK government departments along with others around the world can be a law unto themselves, Ineos can not commit to second guessing what stance government might take and only provide the officially excepted status of the vehicle itself.
Just hoping I will be able to adjust the rear seat of my SW without the use of drills, angle grinders etc. more than happy with a spanner and actions that can easily reversed but nothing more.

 

[DaveB]

Finally had a response from Ineos (3 weeks of asking) completely non commital as expected I guess.

Not sure what your original question was but assume it related to tax.
The correct response from any manufacturer should always be to speak to your tax accountant.
They are the only people qualified and informed enough to give you an answer on your tax situation.

 

[Farmer Michael]

It seems to me there is some risk taking the N1 5 seat for private use regarding BIK and until tested against HMRC. My accountant says that VAT reclaim is no problem and that he thinks that BIK should be OK. Currently I run a base 2018 Hilux DCPU and declare it as no private use - my business is a company and I have a company car which is my wife's daily driver. I also have three privately owned cars for my own use which collectively do more miles than the Hilux. However my accountant is less bullish about taking no private use on the Grenadier on the basis of its high purchase price despite the working specification I have ordered. (Non metallic paint, side panels, hard and soft packs, towbar, raised air intake, roof bars.)

The BIK risk seems to be that HMRC make decisions inconsistently. My understanding of the Coca-Cola case, although it is a while since I read up on it, was that HMRC accepted 5 seat Vauxhall Vivaros as commercial vehicles but not VW T5s for BIK purposes.

 

[DCPU]

Will you keep a log book and record all mileage? I can't see you having an issue if it's all genuine no private use and your records back it up accordingly.*

* Famous last words when HMRC are involved.**

** To be fair to them, too many people have been ripping the piss out of BiK for too long.

 

[oliverwood]

It seems to me there is some risk taking the N1 5 seat for private use regarding BIK and until tested against HMRC. My accountant says that VAT reclaim is no problem and that he thinks that BIK should be OK. Currently I run a base 2018 Hilux DCPU and declare it as no private use - my business is a company and I have a company car which is my wife's daily driver. I also have three privately owned cars for my own use which collectively do more miles than the Hilux. However my accountant is less bullish about taking no private use on the Grenadier on the basis of its high purchase price despite the working specification I have ordered. (Non metallic paint, side panels, hard and soft packs, towbar, raised air intake, roof bars.)

The BIK risk seems to be that HMRC make decisions inconsistently. My understanding of the Coca-Cola case, although it is a while since I read up on it, was that HMRC accepted 5 seat Vauxhall Vivaros as commercial vehicles but not VW T5s for BIK purposes.

Michael, so have you gone for the 5 seat or 2 seat variant ? I went 2 seat so it it very much like the defender hardtop which I use and is ok with being Bik. Cheers Olly.

 

[oliverwood]

Will you keep a log book and record all mileage? I can't see you having an issue if it's all genuine no private use and your records back it up accordingly.*

* Famous last words when HMRC are involved.**

** To be fair to them, too many people have been ripping the piss out of BiK for too long.

I think the main pee take was the double cab pickups that everyone was using. Most never saw anything more that a set of golf clubs in the back.

 

[Farmer Michael]

Michael, so have you gone for the 5 seat or 2 seat variant ? I went 2 seat so it it very much like the defender hardtop which I use and is ok with being Bik. Cheers Olly.

I have a 5 seat on order. Interestingly I am not sure that the 2 seat technically satisfies the rules for VAT reclaim because it still has glass behind the driver's door. The HMRC guidelines say that the windows should be opaque or filled in and the seat mounts put beyond use by welding or fitting special bolts that shear off in the mounts. I have looked at Defender 110 commercial and again keeping the specification relatively modest compares price wise with the Grenadier.

 

[jamesfielding]

Morning chaps, just curious, has anyone opted for the 5 seat Utility Wagon or are you talking about the 5 seat Station Wagon.

 

[Tom D]

I have ordered a 5 seat utility wagon, I need to get the VAT back. Its over £10k!

 

[jamesfielding]

I have ordered a 5 seat utility wagon, I need to get the VAT back. Its over £10k!

Last night I suddenly had a real panic as on some other threads people were only talking about the 5 seat station wagon.
With my order being a UW, I double checked my order and no where does it say 5 seats, the only thing that gives it away is “Rear Seat Covers - optional extra”. Then down a rabbit hole of finding some information about a 5 seat UW variant as you can no longer design a 5 seat UW on the IG website that’s a relief I’m not going mad.

 

[Tom D]

I believe there is a rule that EU car manufacturers are not allowed to sell cars with large engines in large quantities, unless they are hybrids. IG are getting around this by selling commercial versions of the Grenadier. https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/...y-van-versions-ineos-grenadier-help-co2-rules

 

[Logsplitter]

My order states the number of seats and the VED rate would indicate that it’s a commercial version. Maybe contact your dealer and get them to send a pdf of your order as there is more detail on this than the online order summary

 

[Flewks]

I believe there is a rule that EU car manufacturers are not allowed to sell cars with large engines in large quantities, unless they are hybrids. IG are getting around this by selling commercial versions of the Grenadier. https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/business-dealership,-sales-and-marketing/why-van-versions-ineos-grenadier-help-co2-rules

Does this mean that Ineos may only produce Trialmaster/Fieldmaster versions proportionate to the number of Commercials being sold?

 

[jamesfielding]

My order states the number of seats and the VED rate would indicate that it’s a commercial version. Maybe contact your dealer and get them to send a pdf of your order as there is more detail on this than the online order summary View attachment 7802298View attachment 7802299

Thanks for the info Logsplitter. I did call my dealer this morning who as you suggested was able to see the more detail spec like above and could confirm 5 seats. He also said that a few people have called asking about the Utility Vs Station wagon seating.

On a positive note, he did say they were expecting the UK's first "real customer" IG today (not including the Hard Way Home Winner). So things are still moving in the right direction.

 

[Logsplitter]

Does this mean that Ineos may only produce Trialmaster/Fieldmaster versions proportionate to the number of Commercials being sold?

In the U.K. 6000 total of which 1700 M1 and 4300 N1 as a small volume producer as I understand it.

 

[Eric]

In the U.K. 6000 total of which 1700 M1 and 4300 N1 as a small volume producer as I understand it.

That was my understanding but I was told 6000 total but only 1600 Fieldmaster. Whether that means 1600 Fieldmaster + 100 Trialmaster, or 1600 type M1. Probably losing something in the translation, either way it is circa 1600-1700 M1s and 6000 total.

 

[joejet]

That was my understanding but I was told 6000 total but only 1600 Fieldmaster. Whether that means 1600 Fieldmaster + 100 Trialmaster, or 1600 type M1. Probably losing something in the translation, either way it is circa 1600-1700 M1s and 6000 total.

I was under the impression that the trail master was more popular so I question the split of the 1700, I also wonder where year end is 5th April? or Dec 31st. if its April there could be a lot more 2023 cars.

 

[Eric]

I was under the impression that the trail master was more popular so I question the split of the 1700, I also wonder where year end is 5th April? or Dec 31st. if its April there could be a lot more 2023 cars.

I don't think there is a split I just think the figure is 1600 (or 1700) type M1. you're right the issue is the year end. I thought the automotive industry had Dec 31st, in which case IA has missed an opportunity!

 

[Hicarus]

Well, my 1996 TD5 110 twin cab is definitely N1 and attracts the lower VED rate. Whether DVLA have changed the rules recently, I don't know.

 

[Logsplitter]

Well, my 1996 TD5 110 twin cab is definitely N1 and attracts the lower VED rate. Whether DVLA have changed the rules recently, I don't know.

Is that because your defender is classed as a dual purpose vehicle. I don’t know about the td5 but by 2.2 DCPU was classed as a dual purpose vehicle so attracted N1 tax rates but because under 2040kg the same speed limits as cars apply.