How to view the Grenadier in todays market?

[C-Mack]

Interesting video from “The Drive” on YouTube:

View: https://youtu.be/WlTm4tN5N1o?si=LssEnUlntD8RYPHr

 

[rob88]

Thanks for sharing that video.

 

[Jeremy996]

That was a breath of fresh air - although I feel slightly targeted, Grenadier and a Miata NB, (together with a Morgan 4/4 and the wife's Fiat 500C).

 

[[ Adam ]]

Interesting video from “The Drive” on YouTube:

View: https://youtu.be/WlTm4tN5N1o?si=LssEnUlntD8RYPHr

I enjoyed this video and agree with his hypothesis - the Grenadier is designed to do what it does well, and that may not be "everything".

 

[cyson]

I like how this review brings up some of the design aspects, which tends to be missing in other mainstream reviews. More press material could have delivered this message without focusing on standard metrics that Car and Driver and Motor Trend tend to focus on...

 

[Tenac]

If they wanted to keep things simple they could have simply not put in a maintenance alert or reminder into the software and just kept it in the manual...... hmmm hmmm???

 

[cyson]

If they wanted to keep things simple they could have simply not put in a maintenance alert or reminder into the software and just kept it in the manual...... hmmm hmmm???

Definitely a lot of things they could have gone even more simple with. I get the sense that working within the EU safety rules made it really tough on so many levels. My biggest gripe still is ADAS, which seems like was a EU requirement for new vehicles...

Just the way it is, with the amount of electronic nannies from either a 4th or 5th Gen 4Runner would have been good for me. With that being said, it's much simpler than many other European vehicles on sale today.

 

[Tenac]

Definitely a lot of things they could have gone even more simple with. I get the sense that working within the EU safety rules made it really tough on so many levels. My biggest gripe still is ADAS, which seems like was a EU requirement for new vehicles...

Just the way it is, with the amount of electronic nannies from either a 4th or 5th Gen 4Runner would have been good for me. With that being said, it's much simpler than many other European vehicles on sale today.

You bring up some good thinking points here. We say "simple" but is it really or what is really simple??? I have an old beater 87 square body requires nothing but fluid changes too me = simple. lol How ever the 2023 GTS we have is full of technology requires nothing but fluid changes and simple reset the count downs to me this = simple (this 1 year older than the Grenny). Now the Grenny claims simplicity amongst the challenges of regulations equals fair. But is the loudest most sensitive thing I have ever owned. Requires more trips to the dealer in one year of ownership than any other vehicles I have or can remember having.... this does not equal simple too me. Nannies or not they don't work or work with repeatability very well. I'm not even talking hardware just the software here. Knowing the controller they are using to run the interface they are extremely limited on memory and really processing power. If they would have put a damn fire tablet there it would have been significantly better. Maybe they went too far without fully understanding their user stories. lol I'm a keeper really do enjoy it and hoping my dealer starts offering the pick up for service like the BMW dealer nextdoor does... lol

 

[Tazzieman]

There's no going back to the good ol'days!
(Just an excuse to pop a couple of spottos from today's venture on the Isle of Skye)

 

[Bobcat Sig]

I enjoyed this video and agree with his hypothesis - the Grenadier is designed to do what it does well, and that may not be "everything".

This is key with the Grenadier. As we've seen here with several posters posting very public and impassioned meltdowns and rants, many buyers and prospective buyers conflate luxury features and driving experience with the price of the vehicle. While I understand how one can get there, it was never the point of the Grenadier. And that's missed by many, unfortunately.

Though one could argue that the simplicity of our vehicles should be a part of all aspects of the vehicle (I'm looking at you, HVAC system), INEOS and Magna Stayr have done an admirable job.

 

[Krabby]

Though one could argue that the simplicity of our vehicles should be a part of all aspects of the vehicle (I'm looking at you, HVAC system),

Winner, winner, chicken dinner! The hill I'll die on is give me red to blue knob/slider and all would be well.

 

[Bobcat Sig]

Winner, winner, chicken dinner! The hill I'll die on is give me red to blue knob/slider and all would be well.

I know I'm belaboring the point in what seems to be evergreen content with the HVAC, it only needs to be responsive and accurate as part of its simplicity, be it knobs or a dial on a circuit board. A most basic, sub-compact car available in North America, Europe, or Australia will have such an HVAC system. While mine functions well enough, there's room for improvement without making it a luxury system.

And at the risk of getting wildly off-topic, the Quatermaster is in desperate need of more drain holes in the bed/tray. That seems to be a big oversight.

 

[HereinDaRockies]

Bunch of new grenadier reviews on YT over the past week.. new marketing strategy for IA?

 

[cyson]

You bring up some good thinking points here. We say "simple" but is it really or what is really simple??? I have an old beater 87 square body requires nothing but fluid changes too me = simple. lol How ever the 2023 GTS we have is full of technology requires nothing but fluid changes and simple reset the count downs to me this = simple (this 1 year older than the Grenny). Now the Grenny claims simplicity amongst the challenges of regulations equals fair. But is the loudest most sensitive thing I have ever owned. Requires more trips to the dealer in one year of ownership than any other vehicles I have or can remember having.... this does not equal simple too me. Nannies or not they don't work or work with repeatability very well. I'm not even talking hardware just the software here. Knowing the controller they are using to run the interface they are extremely limited on memory and really processing power. If they would have put a damn fire tablet there it would have been significantly better. Maybe they went too far without fully understanding their user stories. lol I'm a keeper really do enjoy it and hoping my dealer starts offering the pick up for service like the BMW dealer nextdoor does... lol

I'm guessing there was quite a bit of feature creep during their product planning and development. I'm not sure what your comfort level of complexity is, but I've been in a some relatively recent vehicles and I like can tolerate the amount of nannies in 4runners of 4th and 5th gen. The new one is a bit much.

I currently have a Lexus GX 460 as well and even that to me is simple enough. The Grenadier has gone a bit too far for my taste, but again, that's probably a personal preference. Compared to most 4x4 out there, I do feel the Grenadier is pretty close to the balance I want. If we went much simpler, like a 1993 Defender 110, then I feel like it's a bit too unrefined for cross country travel. Too loud, too bumpy, too slow, too tippy, etc.

What would you use as an example of a vehicle that is the right amount of electronic complexity?

 

[CRH]

I'm guessing there was quite a bit of feature creep during their product planning and development. I'm not sure what your comfort level of complexity is, but I've been in a some relatively recent vehicles and I like can tolerate the amount of nannies in 4runners of 4th and 5th gen. The new one is a bit much.

I currently have a Lexus GX 460 as well and even that to me is simple enough. The Grenadier has gone a bit too far for my taste, but again, that's probably a personal preference. Compared to most 4x4 out there, I do feel the Grenadier is pretty close to the balance I want. If we went much simpler, like a 1993 Defender 110, then I feel like it's a bit too unrefined for cross country travel. Too loud, too bumpy, too slow, too tippy, etc.

What would you use as an example of a vehicle that is the right amount of electronic complexity?

This issue/answer is far more complex. The seemingly simple car can be complicated beneath the surface that we don't see. Unfortunately EU laws dictate so much complexity that we neither want nor need so that it can strive for net-zero destruction or in the name of safety at any cost. And I am guessing that most of our complaints are because of this.
An old fashioned simple heater system probably produces a tiny fraction of Co² more than the 'amazing' system we have been given. Yes, other manufacturers have systems that work but based on my experience with my Fiat 500 Abarth heater I'm guessing they are all just as complex. It's just a case of inexperience and packing of the BMW system. The assumption was probably that if it works in BMW's it should work in their basic truck. Sadly we have discovered otherwise. Now as they develop as a manufacturer they are having to learn how to develop and improve.

I still believe a lot of Ineos's issues are because of having to work through COVID restrictions and needing to get the vehicle out before any new EU regulations became enforced and the limited time available to sell this vehicle in Europe and Britain. As it stands the Grenadier has just over 4 years in UK and just over 9 in Europe. Hopefully the legacy manufacturers in Europe will influence the EU to change direction and UK will likely change government.

 

[OkGo]

Not disagreeing, but some of the choices they have made are absolutely nuts. If the promise is to build a stable, self supported platform - is using custom battery a reasonable choice to make? Lots of small simple things like this raise concern.

They have clearly decided that time was not what they were concerned about going down the route of making the car dependant on custom engineering with zero supply chains.

Yes but, no but, it's nuanced, it's complicated, this and that and commercial pressure, COVID, right people, wrong people etc etc. Sure, but the simple state of affairs at this point is that IA has largely failed to deliver on their promise, on the proposition of a value platform, and the car has fundamental issues.

It's there a way out? Maybe with my blinkers on I see a light ( or want to ), and I commit to it with £ and time.

In the last 30 days, I have had to use it my car for 5 days. I feel it, but I continue to believe there is light. What I am not ready to do is accept that the present state of affairs is acceptable. Not from a misled consumers standing. So, I don't disagree with what you are saying - on the contrary, I agree with the challenge set you have laid down. It's just hard to get closure on the idea that IA is running, day to day, with decisions being made out of the seat of their pants.

 

[Tenac]

I'm guessing there was quite a bit of feature creep during their product planning and development. I'm not sure what your comfort level of complexity is, but I've been in a some relatively recent vehicles and I like can tolerate the amount of nannies in 4runners of 4th and 5th gen. The new one is a bit much.

I currently have a Lexus GX 460 as well and even that to me is simple enough. The Grenadier has gone a bit too far for my taste, but again, that's probably a personal preference. Compared to most 4x4 out there, I do feel the Grenadier is pretty close to the balance I want. If we went much simpler, like a 1993 Defender 110, then I feel like it's a bit too unrefined for cross country travel. Too loud, too bumpy, too slow, too tippy, etc.

What would you use as an example of a vehicle that is the right amount of electronic complexity?

That is a great question, honestly when I think about it one that simply works as intended or by design would be adequate. Like in my comparison I have a Porsche that boosts about how many calculations per second it will feed the driveline and suspension to keep it stable on the track and my assumption has far more computerization then the grenny yet its been 100% more reliable. On the other hand I also have a old truck that simply just works as intended but no feature comforts other than an AC that works as intended. lol I agree with your assessment of your Lexus, sometimes we think less tech = more better but it isn't reality any longer and trying to go too far less brings up issues.

 

[Mad Hatter]

This is a very interesting discussion and pertinent for me as I've decided to part ways with my grenadier and I've traded it in for a new defender. Part of the reason for this is health related, a consequence of which is that I'm having to use the grenadier a lot for long distance autoroute travel rather than exploring off piste. The grenadier can do this but it's not at its best in that situation. The other reason is that there are a number of niggles which have become very irksome in my new health mandated 'use case' (e.g. transfer box whine, ADAS bongs which require too many button presses to switch off, slow and randomly glitchy infotainment system, HVAC wackiness, juddering wipers, poor lumbar support, jamming menu buttons exacerbating ADAS frustrations, jamming door buttons, sagging control cables hitting propshaft, poor turning circle, door seals collecting water, the need to seriously slam doors to prevent warning lights, etc). Had I been using the vehicle for 'expeditions' these niggles would not have intruded to the same extent but as things stand I've decided it's time to move on. The defender is equally as computerised as the grenadier but its development is more mature and its systems seem less buggy. It's also much more refined on road which is unfortunately where I'm spending most of my time, so it fits my use case better. Reflecting on the conversation in this thread I think it's not so much an issue with the grenadier it's more that my use case has changed and the grenadier is now sub-optimal for me. Had I been doing much more off road exploring, even if only on gravel, the grenadier would have excelled and it would be a different story. Incidentally one of my reasons for choosing the defender is that there are many aftermarket providers who can go into the vehicle systems and change settings to enable you to permanently switch off the ADAS nanny noises, something not possible at present on the grenadier unless you live in the US. For me the best part of the grenadier is its suspension and the worst part is its software, particularly the human/machine interface. I think there is no escape from computers in modern vehicles and for me that's ok, so long as a) they are 100% reliable and b) the software is properly developed, tested and fit for purpose. The latter is not the case in the grenadier (actually I suspect 90% of the software is fine, it's the 10% that isn't which is irritating). There endeth my twopennethworth

 

[Tazzieman]

Well fair enough. Mine works perfectly.
Just glad I don't have a ND with triple the number of sensors, huge price and dastardly service costs...in my state!

 

[OkGo]

Would be nice to have a car that works perfectly, maybe when I grow up...