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Fusilier On Hold???

In some cases probably yes. In this case a main dealer service is £10 cheaper for that EV and there are no tolls/parking/city charges cheaper for EVs within 100 miles.
Hmm what are they servicing on an EV that ends up cumulatively costing only £10 less than a comparable ICE? No oil change, no transmission maintenance, so just consumables like filters (no engine air or oil filter on an EV), brakes (brakes last much longer on most EV's due to regenerative braking), wiper blades, cabin air filter, rotate and balance the tires?

The first EV I purchased was a BMW I-4, the dealer tried to sell me the extended maintenance package which was not discounted from the ICE version of the BMW 4 series, he couldn't justify why.

The other point beyond maintenance is just repairs. 10 years the EV battery will have been off warranty for two years (typically 8 years 100,000 miles). The engine and transmission on the ICE will likely have been out of warranty for a long time (typically 5 years 60,000 miles).
 
Hmm what are they servicing on an EV that ends up cumulatively costing only £10 less than a comparable ICE? No oil change, no transmission maintenance, so just consumables like filters (no engine air or oil filter on an EV), brakes (brakes last much longer on most EV's due to regenerative braking), wiper blades, cabin air filter, rotate and balance the tires?

The first EV I purchased was a BMW I-4, the dealer tried to sell me the extended maintenance package which was not discounted from the ICE version of the BMW 4 series, he couldn't justify why.

The other point beyond maintenance is just repairs. 10 years the EV battery will have been off warranty for two years (typically 8 years 100,000 miles). The engine and transmission on the ICE will likely have been out of warranty for a long time (typically 5 years 60,000 miles).
No idea. Although the servicing on that that car is about £200. Not much more than the cost to replace a cabin filter on an IG from what people have posted on this forum.

The point I was trying to make is that if you are driving say 5,000 miles per year, choosing an EV is not necessarily a financial benefit
 
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No idea. Although the servicing on that that car is about £200. Not much more than the cost to replace a cabin filter on an IG from what people have posted on this forum.

The point I was trying to make is that if you are driving say 5,000 miles per year, choosing an EV is not necessarily a financial benefit
Personally I hate them, but to @landmannnn’s point, there is a sweet spot. Not long range remote, not high-mileage-on-the-clock (eg taxi), not super low mileage where you can’t recoup on parts and repairs - but <200m daily driver in town and charging in your garage at night? Yes. That’s why I thought the Fusilier would have been cool for my wife. And with the range extender, it would even have been good for regional trips. I would still buy one, if IA changed their minds.
 
The koolaid is worth drinking.

The average American drives less than 40 miles per day. If you can charge at home (i.e. don't live in an apartment or in the city where you don't have a garage) then that average person will rarely need to use a charger outside the home.

My wife has an EV and I don't remember the exact maximum range it gets but it's over 400 miles, which is a lot more than my Grenadier gets (before I added the extended tank). We don't normally take the EV on road trips, because when we are driving long distance it's typically to do fun things with the Grenadier. But when we do, we have more than enough range to drive for three hours at which point we are bladder limited and need to stop anyway. Assuming we stop at a location with a fast charger, in the amount of time it takes us to use the restroom and get a coffee (15-20min) the EV will have charged more than enough to drive another three hours. That charging is significantly less expensive than the equivalent premium fuel for the Grenadier.

Add to that when we charge the EV at home, it's usually during the day where our solar panels are covering the charge.

As for fast charging not being readily available, it's a chicken-and-the-egg problem, but it is improving and on major interstates there are very few stretches left where fast charging is not easily available.

Don't get me wrong, taking an electric SUV on a week-long overlanding trip in the boonies would be impractical at this point. But, the day is coming. The new Scout is offering a "range extender" option (basically an onboard generator that can charge the battery even while driving). With that you could take jerry cans and get serious range. Mechanical problems overlanding in an electric EV would likely be a lot less.

The fact that in the US we've turned electric cars into a political issue is absurd. All we are doing is allowing the Chinese to steal market-share while their electric car industry is being heavily subsidized by their government. In thirty years, when 99% of vehicles on the road are Chinese electric cars, we will look back and shake our heads at how politicization of electric vehicles allowed the Chinese to run-away with MarketShare uncontested. Anti-EV sentiment in the US is like the horse and buggy owners shaking their fists at the Ford Model T.
It became a political issue when various levels of government began actively trying to kill the ICE and diesel engines through regulations and coercion, ignoring the market demands for EVs. Basically using their power to force as many into them as possible as quickly as possible.
 
It became a political issue when various levels of government began actively trying to kill the ICE and diesel engines through regulations and coercion, ignoring the market demands for EVs. Basically using their power to force as many into them as possible as quickly as possible.
That doesn't mean making it a political issue is smart. We are squandering our competitive advantage. The domestic EV market is almost entirely made in the USA. We are cutting domestic EV producers' throats while the Chinese are babying and bolstering their EV industry. Other markets around the world are moving to Chinese vehicles because of those Chinese subsidies. And those other markets don't buy into the political spin in the US that we can ignore climate change, so ICE's days are limited globally and EV's are the future, whether we as auto enthusiast want to acknowledge that fact or not.
 
It became a political issue when various levels of government began actively trying to kill the ICE and diesel engines through regulations and coercion, ignoring the market demands for EVs. Basically using their power to force as many into them as possible as quickly as possible.
Like I said - hate the EV’s and even hybrids with that stupid quiet whine. But if we fully priced out oil in the US (taking away foreign policy and military intervention to protect oil supply, “friendly” oil-producing oligarchs, tax subsidies and public land access, etc etc) - then we could say with a straight face that this was really a matter of free market demand. Just like “invisible tariffs” impeding free and competitive trade, government intervention and tax policy are an interference to free market competition in energy and automotive. The House of Saud has its hands deep in the pockets of the American taxpayer.
 
Like I said - hate the EV’s and even hybrids with that stupid quiet whine. But if we fully priced out oil in the US (taking away foreign policy and military intervention to protect oil supply, “friendly” oil-producing oligarchs, tax subsidies and public land access, etc etc) - then we could say with a straight face that this was really a matter of free market demand. Just like “invisible tariffs” impeding free and competitive trade, government intervention and tax policy are an interference to free market competition in oil and automotive. The House of Saud has its hands deep in the pockets of the American taxpayer.
Oh, I never said there was a free market, I wish there was, but that doesn't mean it's OK to eliminate ICE and mandate EVs through regulation is the answer. It's pretty clear the market, at least the US market doesn't want EVs to any great degree.
 
The cost of EV’s is very understated just about everywhere…Yes it does make sense to install your own charger at home…The questions is what is that cost? There is no average cost as it depends on labor and any retrofitting in your home (i.e. if your home runs on 100A service then you will need an upgrade). What level charger are you going to install? (Level 1 can run up to $2500 or as low as under $1k; which is just for the unit). How much is your electricity costs? Are your electricity costs stable? What is the source of your electricity? What are teh current political climate in your area for electricity (Banning fossil fuels? Rely on renewables?) What happens if your entire neighborhood starts to do the same? Can the grid handle it? There are places in CA that wouldn’t allow you to charge you vehicle between certain hours. DO you have a SMART meter installed? If so the power company can shut you off as they can tell what devices you have plugged in (Appliances, vehicles, A/C, heat, etc.)

One must also consider the time it takes to recharge versus filling up a tank. Typically you can fill up a tank in less than 5 minutes (assuming less than 20 gallon’s to be conservative) as opposed to 45 minutes to go from ~15% to above 90% on an EV at a Tesla charger (This was my experience). That 40 minutes has a cost (assuming $40/hour that equates to a bit over $26.50; a gas fillup would be less than $3.50) and that should be added to the cost of the electricity.

Let’s now talk about end of life…how long will the batteries last? What will your range be in 3 years, 5 years? What is the resale of those vehicles at that point? It is cheaper to replace an ICE than a rack of batteries in an EV. It is also not possible to purchase remanufactured or used batteries to lessen the cost of repairs.

EVs are perfect for commuting where your daily mileage is low and you have the ability to charge either at home or there are enough charging stations close to you. Otherwise an EV doesn’t make sense for most American purposes unless they also have an ICE vehicle.
 
Let’s now talk about end of life…how long will the batteries last? What will your range be in 3 years, 5 years? What is the resale of those vehicles at that point? It is cheaper to replace an ICE than a rack of batteries in an EV. It is also not possible to purchase remanufactured or used batteries to lessen the cost of repairs.
Old top of the range Tesla, <5000 quid now , 76% battery left after 250000 miles or so. Bit of a bargain!
View: https://youtu.be/t1aI7EfSnmE?feature=shared
 
Hmmm, I have a level 2 charger for my Rivian. Installed it myself for the grand cost of my time. Charger cost $700 with my first Rivian. It has been used on two Rivians now. Trucks charging in the garage as I type. Most road trips we have done we do short burst charging. We never try to charge over 80% on the road unless we have a very long charging desert ahead. Fastest charging takes place between 20% and up to 80% at most.

Smart meters cannot detect what device is consuming power. You have to have a smart panel to do that. Those are pretty rare these days but becoming more popular.

I gather your experience wasn't the best, but my wife loves her Rivian and the massively reduced maintenance and cost to operate makes her exceptionally happy which is more than enough to justify it for me. But luckily I reap the rewards directly too since cost to operate is so much lower to be sure. We have made several long trips with our Rivian with the longest being a 13hr drive. Most are around 6-8hrs. And I frankly enjoy the reduced rush to get back on the road at gas stations. I find I'm vastly more relaxed and enjoy the trip more than when I drive my ICE trucks. My pocket book appreciates it too.
 
The cost of EV’s is very understated just about everywhere…Yes it does make sense to install your own charger at home…The questions is what is that cost? There is no average cost as it depends on labor and any retrofitting in your home (i.e. if your home runs on 100A service then you will need an upgrade). What level charger are you going to install? (Level 1 can run up to $2500 or as low as under $1k; which is just for the unit). How much is your electricity costs? Are your electricity costs stable? What is the source of your electricity? What are teh current political climate in your area for electricity (Banning fossil fuels? Rely on renewables?) What happens if your entire neighborhood starts to do the same? Can the grid handle it? There are places in CA that wouldn’t allow you to charge you vehicle between certain hours. DO you have a SMART meter installed? If so the power company can shut you off as they can tell what devices you have plugged in (Appliances, vehicles, A/C, heat, etc.)

One must also consider the time it takes to recharge versus filling up a tank. Typically you can fill up a tank in less than 5 minutes (assuming less than 20 gallon’s to be conservative) as opposed to 45 minutes to go from ~15% to above 90% on an EV at a Tesla charger (This was my experience). That 40 minutes has a cost (assuming $40/hour that equates to a bit over $26.50; a gas fillup would be less than $3.50) and that should be added to the cost of the electricity.

Let’s now talk about end of life…how long will the batteries last? What will your range be in 3 years, 5 years? What is the resale of those vehicles at that point? It is cheaper to replace an ICE than a rack of batteries in an EV. It is also not possible to purchase remanufactured or used batteries to lessen the cost of repairs.

EVs are perfect for commuting where your daily mileage is low and you have the ability to charge either at home or there are enough charging stations close to you. Otherwise an EV doesn’t make sense for most American purposes unless they also have an ICE vehicle.
Searching on Google, I am unable to find anywhere in California (or in the US as a whole) that mandates restrictions on when you can charge your EV. There may be recommendations, but I can't find any mandates. There are utilities that have different rates at certain times of the day to encourage you to charge at specific times, but I can't find any cases where you are not allowed to charge at any time.

The US grid needs to be improved. If that became a non-political issue, then that is a solvable problem, but like so many things in current US politics, we can't have rational conversations about the issue. Home solar also helps the grid, but again, our polarized politics makes that a hot-button issue too.

The key for charging times is a blend between available range, efficiency, and charge speed (both of the charger and the vehicle). If you have an inefficient EV then you are fighting an uphill battle.

Take for example the electric Hummer, it has an inefficient shape, weighs a lot, and uses inefficient motors, so it has to employ a massive battery pack which in turn adds weight to make the vehicle even more inefficient. That massive battery pack takes a lot longer to charge to return the same travel distance as an EV that weighs a lot less, has a more efficient shape, and uses more efficient motors.

My wife's EV can add 290 miles of range from 14% to 80% in 30 minutes on a level 3 charger. Charging above 80% when stopping mid-trip for a top-up is counterproductive as batteries charge slower the closer you get to 100% (unless you are planning on spending more than 30 minutes at the charging location). So, what does that mean? We can easily do a 600-mile trip with only one charging stop of 30 minutes with at least 10% in reserve (charge it to 100% at home before we leave, and to 80% at the charge stop). Making a 30-minute stop half-way through a 8-hour trip is not an inconvenience to me, it's really more of necessity. That's also not a trip we would take very often, and I suspect not the typical frequent use scenario for most drivers. Before I got the long-range tank, that same 600-mile trip would take 3 fuel stops (including the first fill-up) in my Grenadier. 3 fill-ups in the Grenadier is probably not that far off from 30 minutes the way we do our fuel stops (bathroom breaks, arguing about whether I can buy a donut, cleaning bugs off the wind-shield, etc.).

The end-of-life arguments for EV's are proving to be far less problematic than predicted when EV's first started. First the rate at which high mileage Teslas are requiring battery changes is far less than anticipated. Secondly, it seems the tests used in labs to arrive at battery longevity predictions were flawed in the first place and real-world usage actually results in about a third more battery life than originally forecasted. See for example this article: https://news.stanford.edu/stories/2...teries-may-last-up-to-40-longer-than-expected

And your comment that these end-of-life issues are a concern in 3 to 5 years is not the case. The most current studies on real-world EV battery degradation have found that the batteries degrade at 1.8% per year. So, a 5-year-old battery would still have 91% of its capacity, which is why EV's come with an 8-year / 100K mile battery warranty that guarantees at least 70% capacity (10 / 150K mile year in California). Some EV manufacturers provide even more.

There are many examples of Teslas with over 200,000 miles on the clock that have battery capacities performing in line with the 1.8% per year prediction, there are some that have exceeded 500K and I seem to recall there is at least one with over a million. I suspect that level of degraded battery performance is no worse (probably better) than what you can expect to experience in reduced performance from an ICE engine with the same age and mileage.

Outside of major recalls, only 2.5% of EV's have required a battery replacement and the vast majority of those were done under warranty. So, the fear of some looming massive battery replacement expense on the horizon is overstated. It's no more likely than needing to replace the engine on an ICE, which costs about the same as replacing a battery pack on an EV when you include labor (and the price of EV batteries is going down, while ICE engine prices are going up).

Your closing statement that EV's don't fit everyone's use case is true. But I think there is a lot of misinformation about EV's that gets thrown about, often as a result of a political agenda.

When you look at the % of "made in America" by car manufacturers, Tesla, Rivian, Lucid, and the EV products of legacy automotive manufacturers (Hyundai, Ford, GM, etc.) account for the majority of the most "made in America" of cars sold here. EV manufacturing in the US is responsible for over 240,000 US jobs. Sadly, my prediction is that won't last. We've given the Chinese a free pass to dominate the world EV market while crippling our domestic EV production and development, all in the name of politics.
 
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... And I frankly enjoy the reduced rush to get back on the road at gas stations. I find I'm vastly more relaxed and enjoy the trip more than when I drive my ICE trucks. My pocket book appreciates it too.

You are not alone. Recent studies have found that drivers of electric cars find driving to be less stressful.
 
First world problems

Since the "average American" was brought up that drive less than 40 miles a day, the "average American family" doesn't have the several thousand to install a level 2 or 3 charger laying around, even less after paying the premium for an EV in the first place. Hell the average American doesn't have savings to cover their bills for long should they lose their jobs. Even if they did, how many current homes wiring can even handle the added load of an EV. Then how many average families have a second car they can use for long trips because they can't afford the time it takes to get there in an EV? If I had to wager, I'd bet that most that are the most vocal about the elimination of ICE and a switch to EVs don't drive and rely on mass transportation or the affluent, most of whom love to virtue signal about their EVs and have a second vehicle for when the EV doesn't suit their needs.
 
First world problems

Since the "average American" was brought up that drive less than 40 miles a day, the "average American family" doesn't have the several thousand to install a level 2 or 3 charger laying around, even less after paying the premium for an EV in the first place. Hell the average American doesn't have savings to cover their bills for long should they lose their jobs. Even if they did, how many current homes wiring can even handle the added load of an EV. Then how many average families have a second car they can use for long trips because they can't afford the time it takes to get there in an EV? If I had to wager, I'd bet that most that are the most vocal about the elimination of ICE and a switch to EVs don't drive and rely on mass transportation or the affluent, most of whom love to virtue signal about their EVs and have a second vehicle for when the EV doesn't suit their needs.
So, let's give away the US auto industry to the Chinese. That will show those first world EV lovers!

You do realize we are in a forum about a car that for 95% of users is not a necessary purchase?

Ask the Australians in this forum how it worked out for the Australian auto industry when their government decided to stop supporting domestic auto production (hint they don't have a domestic auto manufacturing industry anymore).
 
So, let's give away the US auto industry to the Chinese. That will show those first world EV lovers!

You do realize we are in a forum about a car that for 95% of users is not a necessary purchase?

Ask the Australians in this forum how it worked out for the Australian auto industry when their government decided to stop supporting domestic auto production (hint they don't have a domestic auto manufacturing industry anymore).
The vast majority of Americans don't want EVs. If they did, there wouldn't be a need to coerce or force them to buy them, nor would there be the massive push, I say strong arming, of the US automakers to build them.
 
The vast majority of Americans don't want EVs. If they did, there wouldn't be a need to coerce or force them to buy them, nor would there be the massive push, I say strong arming, of the US automakers to build them.
And what data do you have to back that up? That's just "like your opinion man".
 
Failed products doesn't mean that most Americans are anti-EV or "don't want" EV's. It just means there isn't an EV on the market now that they will buy right now. That's an important distinction. There are certainly crappy EV's and ICE vehicles out there right now. It doesn't mean I am anti-ICE or or EV. There are also some very nice EV's and ICE vehicles that I would buy (or have).
 
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