Front Drive Shaft Update

[terdrocket]

I need to check mine after the recent install. I lightly put the clamp on the boot end. In that the metal clamp is tight enough to stay in its groove, but loose enough that I can rotate it by hand.
I wanted it to allow the boot to move and settle where ever it needed over time without being bound at a certain location.

I need to check that no grease has made its way out.

 

[Mountain4x4]

Mine was glowing red when I pulled over.

 

[Logsplitter]

Mine was glowing red when I pulled over.

Seriously . That’s enough to put anyone off installing one

 

[Tazzieman]

Mine was glowing red when I pulled over.

Wouldn't the boot melt?

 

[Dokatd]

Wouldn't the boot melt?

I'd have to assume the boot had been gone for some time. They only get this hot when the grease leaves the chat.

 

[Commodore]

Just waking up, long night on the road. The small lift and terra, survived over 15K miles, exploded on the highway towing. Not sure its just the boot. I think what did me in was towing over undulating roads sending it out of spec. Believe me, Ineos is well aware of this disaster, but no solution in site. They relied on Dana for the design and are VERY pissed I assure you. Thankfully removing the shaft and driving in 4 lock gets you down the road. New shaft from Agile on the way.

Curious, how do you know Ineos is aware of this issue because they sure seem to be silent on the topic?

 

[Mountain4x4]

My boot was perfect the day before. Since I was out wheeling I kept checking it. It is unlikely the boot was the root cause. When I pulled over there was clouds of smoke from burning rubber, but by the time I crawled under the boot was melted away, and the cup around the joint melted nearly completely away, and the gear at the end just a blob. That was in maybe a few thousand feet at 70 MPH.

I spoke with Hans Peter about the issue and he literally went into a full rage over it. Dana did the design for them, and he was like " 50 years designing driveshafts and they screwed me" . He did not indicate any solutions on the horizon yet. But they know reliability is so important to the brand, and I believe something will get resolved down the road. Make sure if you have a failure its reported through warranty claims. Dont just install a new aftermarket shaft, so they can see the failure rate.

 

[Zimm]

It would be interesting to see one of those thermal videos of the boots (stock and Terraflex) after 10, 15, 30 minutes of driving on both a stock and lifted Grenadier.

I have ideas like this but not the equipment to actually follow through.

Ya know, I carry a flir. i'm going to start recording after drive. The data may be helpful, even tough I wont have a "new" baseline.

 

[Dokatd]

My boot was perfect the day before. Since I was out wheeling I kept checking it. It is unlikely the boot was the root cause. When I pulled over there was clouds of smoke from burning rubber, but by the time I crawled under the boot was melted away, and the cup around the joint melted nearly completely away, and the gear at the end just a blob. That was in maybe a few thousand feet at 70 MPH.

I spoke with Hans Peter about the issue and he literally went into a full rage over it. Dana did the design for them, and he was like " 50 years designing driveshafts and they screwed me" . He did not indicate any solutions on the horizon yet. But they know reliability is so important to the brand, and I believe something will get resolved down the road. Make sure if you have a failure its reported through warranty claims. Dont just install a new aftermarket shaft, so they can see the failure rate.

Did you feel the boot with your fingers the day before or just pop your head underneath? Or did you go through a water crossing by chance.

Somehow the grease was washed out completely or foreign debris got in the joint. Otherwise it must have been a bad joint.

Even with hundreds of miles on torn boots mine have both retained some amount of grease.

 

[Mountain4x4]

I felt it, no water crossings, maybe a puddle. The issue I think was exceeding the extremely limited range of motion it allows while bouncing along with a trailer behind it. Its the limited range of motion allowed in the design that is the issue. Anything, small lift, too much articulation, big bump can cause failure. There may be some boot failures that occur first and allow the grease out. But no amount of better rubber is going hold up to being pinched, and when the joint grenades the boot goes away.

 

[Dokatd]

I felt it, no water crossings, maybe a puddle. The issue I think was exceeding the extremely limited range of motion it allows while bouncing along with a trailer behind it. Its the limited range of motion allowed in the design that is the issue. Anything, small lift, too much articulation, big bump can cause failure. There may be some boot failures that occur first and allow the grease out. But no amount of better rubber is going hold up to being pinched, and when the joint grenades the boot goes away.

Agreed, so you have a lift or no? You're suggesting the front end was light due to a trailer? And bouncing the front caused just enough extra angle to cause contact?

With stock shocks the joint can't make contact with the shaft if that makes since. I have longer Kings which allow it to get a bit closer than stock shocks.

 

[Mountain4x4]

Yes I have the small Elibach spring lift. Not really light, and honestly the Grenadier tows great for an SUV with 35s. But HWY 550 has terrible undulations due to expansive soil. It is terrible for towing, a great test though.

 

[Logsplitter]

My boot was perfect the day before. Since I was out wheeling I kept checking it. It is unlikely the boot was the root cause. When I pulled over there was clouds of smoke from burning rubber, but by the time I crawled under the boot was melted away, and the cup around the joint melted nearly completely away, and the gear at the end just a blob. That was in maybe a few thousand feet at 70 MPH.

I spoke with Hans Peter about the issue and he literally went into a full rage over it. Dana did the design for them, and he was like " 50 years designing driveshafts and they screwed me" . He did not indicate any solutions on the horizon yet. But they know reliability is so important to the brand, and I believe something will get resolved down the road. Make sure if you have a failure its reported through warranty claims. Dont just install a new aftermarket shaft, so they can see the failure rate.

Let’s hope Hans-Peter and his term come up with a solution. This is the one issue that really concerns me when going remote. Having had my front drive shaft fail I know full well of what other damage can be caused. No amount of MacGyver fixes will help if you’ve lost all your gearbox oil in the process.
Doing a retro fit CV joint to all existing Grenadier’s will be costly but will help With the Ineos reputation no end.

 

[Dokatd]

Well, I come with some new findings. Please understand this is just a quick observation so things could change. But..... after manipulating my new joint on the bench I believe I have sourced one issue. With the joint at max angle assuming the boot is on the cage and inner ball race comes in contact with the boot. It's not possible to show pics at the moment, but I will see if I can create a rig that shows the evidence in some way. In the meantime time here are some pics of the boot for everyone's reference.

 

[Dokatd]

Well, I come with some new findings. Please understand this is just a quick observation so things could change. But..... after manipulating my new joint on the bench I believe I have sourced one issue. With the joint at max angle assuming the boot is on the cage and inner ball race comes in contact with the boot. It's not possible to show pics at the moment, but I will see if I can create a rig that shows the evidence in some way. In the meantime time here are some pics of the boot for everyone's reference.

Edit, the boot comes super close depending on installation. If the boot is pushed in slightly it will hit. But if it's mostly relaxed upon install with no angle on the joint then it's just super close but won't touch. As well, if installed at relaxed length the boot really doesn't get pinched at the typical point of failure. It will get pinched of course, but that's up on the shaft of the boot.

 

[evomind]

Let’s hope Hans-Peter and his term come up with a solution. This is the one issue that really concerns me when going remote. Having had my front drive shaft fail I know full well of what other damage can be caused. No amount of MacGyver fixes will help if you’ve lost all your gearbox oil in the process.
Doing a retro fit CV joint to all existing Grenadier’s will be costly but will help With the Ineos reputation no end.

What would it take for Ineos or anyone for that matter to fix this properly?

 

[Texas Grenadier]

Edit, the boot comes super close depending on installation. If the boot is pushed in slightly it will hit. But if it's mostly relaxed upon install with no angle on the joint then it's just super close but won't touch. As well, if installed at relaxed length the boot really doesn't get pinched at the typical point of failure. It will get pinched of course, but that's up on the shaft of the boot.

Curios to see how long ours are going to last by not over tighten the hose clamp to the driveshaft. You may be on to something there.

 

[Logsplitter]

What would it take for Ineos or anyone for that matter to fix this properly?

No idea other than look at other vehicles such as the G-Wagon to see how they do it which I suppose Ineos has done. A complete re design maybe tilting the input side of the axles up slightly? I’m no engineer but this sort of thing has been done for decades by other manufacturers.

 

[Mountain4x4]

For now Agile Offroad has a fail proof driveshaft. But it will have some harmonics between 70-72 MPH, that is what I am doing. No one has been able to build a drive shaft thats perfect. You will have to call them, as they need to verify you are ok with the vibration at 70-72. Something to change the Pinon Angle will need to occur at some point I guess, but way over my pay grade.

 

[TCMColorado]

The real solution is to change the spec of the front axle by rotating the pinion up in relation to the kingpin knuckles. This will be great for new builds, but it is never something Ineos will provide for owners of previously built models as the cost would crush them.