Front differential, rear differential, and transfer case fluid levels

[Dokatd]

The amount of hyperbole in this thread is drowning out rational discourse. And I haven’t seen one single argument (logical or otherwise) for why we should ignore the guidance from Ineos shown here and substitute someone else’s untested, unproven “I’ve always done it this way” procedure.

I accord manufacturers a presumption of publishing good faith, well-researched and economically advantageous service specifications (for both the manufacturer and consumer). So the bar for ignoring them is pretty high.

Glen, nobody is making you ignore anything. Do it how you like.

But, there are already reports from multiple people across the globe including myself who have witnessed or been told directly that some if not most Ineos dealers fill to spill. That's not hyperbole, that's data.

The fact that the SST. Number is X'd out and dealers/service agents have had to cobble their own "tool" to measure the fluid suggest that Ineos doesn't seem to care enough or is simply ignoring the practices going on at their service centers.

And finally, do you really trust Ineos that much? Their engineers have botched so many things and continue to produce vehicles in new model years with the same issues. We have drive shafts melting down, diffs blowing up, diffs locking up randomly at high speed, seals leaking, roofs leaking, windows leaking, trucks filling up with water, software from hell etc etc. these are all things that were largely avoidable.

 

[Logsplitter]

Here’s another video that @Greasemonkey sent measured a link to

View: https://youtube.com/shorts/taiE-e2tkOY?si=YB5c79u_L6rY3TYy

 

[C-Mack]

Certainly different techs at different dealerships are using their preferred methods. In the video clip below at about the 7:00 mark the service manger at Warner in SLC explains the dip stick fill method. Do they do this on every vehicle serviced? Who knows but they took the time show it in a video for public consumption. Bottom line is use the method you are most comfortable with and at a minimum make sure you have specified 2.1L in there and move on with life.

View: https://youtu.be/VILo-z5jcEA?si=wtA4zQVo-f7c2xjn

 

[Dokatd]

Here’s another video that @Greasemonkey sent measured a link to

View: https://youtube.com/shorts/taiE-e2tkOY?si=YB5c79u_L6rY3TYy

That video is a click bait vid.

First he discusses the excess oil causing issue with the spider gears. These gears spin very little and slowly as a general rule. That's why they don't have roller bearings etc. So that statement is just BS

Then, leaving to litttle air in the diff causing excess pressure is another problematic suggestion. Diff housings are vented to atmosphere. They on average cannot hold pressure. Sure you can have a plugged vent but that's not an oil level issue.

There most certainly is a point where you can have too much oil. That's most certainly factual, but this particular video is just BS. And it's almost certainly a stolen video clip that was originally made to discuss differential function. Then an AI voice was tossed over to make this BS

 

[Dokatd]

Certainly different techs at different dealerships are using their preferred methods. In the video clip below at about the 7:00 mark the service manger at Warner in SLC explains the dip stick fill method. Do they do this on every vehicle serviced? Who knows but they took the time show it in a video for public consumption. Bottom line is use the method you are most comfortable with and at a minimum make sure you have specified 2.1L in there and move on with life.

View: https://youtu.be/VILo-z5jcEA?si=wtA4zQVo-f7c2xjn

Yup, totally agree!!

 

[Logsplitter]

Glen, nobody is making you ignore anything. Do it how you like.

But, there are already reports from multiple people across the globe including myself who have witnessed or been told directly that some if not most Ineos dealers fill to spill. That's not hyperbole, that's data.

The fact that the SST. Number is X'd out and dealers/service agents have had to cobble their own "tool" to measure the fluid suggest that Ineos doesn't seem to care enough or is simply ignoring the practices going on at their service centers.

And finally, do you really trust Ineos that much? Their engineers have botched so many things and continue to produce vehicles in new model years with the same issues. We have drive shafts melting down, diffs blowing up, diffs locking up randomly at high speed, seals leaking, roofs leaking, windows leaking, trucks filling up with water, software from hell etc etc. these are all things that were largely avoidable.

Could the dealers/service agents you are talking about be the cause of the problems you highlighted. “diffs blowing up, diffs locking up randomly at high speed, “
Certainly the agents I’ve used , use the correct amount of oil.

 

[landmannnn]

Certainly the agents I’ve used , use the correct amount of oil.

My experience too.

 

[Dokatd]

Could the dealers/service agents you are talking about be the cause of the problems you highlighted. “diffs blowing up, diffs locking up randomly at high speed, “
Certainly the agents I’ve used , use the correct amount of oil.

I have not heard of one locally. And mine hasn't had a single issue.

And how can you be certain about your agent? Though I tend to believe service centers in your neck of the woods are less cowboys than we have here in the states.

 

[Tenac]

I have not heard of one locally. And mine hasn't had a single issue.

And how can you be certain about your agent? Though I tend to believe service centers in your neck of the woods are less cowboys than we have here in the states.

This sounds just like the front drive shaft issues. lol I'm with you fluid changed twice thus far and no issues. I'm lifted my driveshaft did not decide to go on vacation yet either....

 

[landmannnn]

Though I tend to believe service centers in your neck of the woods are less cowboys than we have here in the states.

Not always, plenty of national chains employing oil covered teenagers with no skills.

Main dealers employ older people with clean workwear. Also with no skills.

 

[Tazzieman]

Main dealers employ older people with clean workwear. Also with no skills.

This is for @ Dokatd

 

[Jeremy996]

I have not heard of one locally. And mine hasn't had a single issue.

And how can you be certain about your agent? Though I tend to believe service centers in your neck of the woods are less cowboys than we have here in the states.

I know my agent is very careful, they're an agri-dealer with a car side hustle, they know my background and they know I check on stuff done. As retail dealers talk to each other, they also know I took the local VW dealer to Court and won, helped a friend get a settlement from a LR dealer, funded by JLR and used to run a motor project in the local area. It's a shame they decided not to take up a full dealership, but remain a service agent; they had very little success selling Grenadiers after the initial rush.

 

[Dokatd]

This is for @ Dokatd

Fair enough

 

[Clark Kent]

It's time to stop fighting the manual. Or if you don't want to do that at least stop fighting those who do want to follow it.

I don't much care for an argument based on normalising a practice that is contrary to the OEM's instructions. To stick with "that's the way we've always done it" would still have us still swinging a lantern in front of the vehicle.
Nor do I care much for senior technicians that don't follow the manual because they've become too lazy to read or are complacent because they've been doing it their own way for years.

I'll illustrate this first hand:
At my first 12 month/15,000km service the trusted senior technician didn't do the mandatory diff oil changes. Why not? Because he didn't know they needed to be done. Why? Because he didn't fully read the service schedule to comply with the note for the mandatory oil change. When I pointed out this error my agent asked for the vehicle to come back for correction. 2nd time around the trusted senior technician changed the Rear diff oil. Why? Because he interpreted R in the task list as (R)ear. He even wrote "Rear diff oil replaced" on the job docket. It seems that not only did he not RTFM* the first time, he then reinforced his complacency by not decoding R as (R)eplace the oil. Why not? Because in his experience no manufacturer changes the diff oil at the first service. And that was his downfall. The unwillingness to recognise he was working on a new platform and to pay attention to the documentation. He relied on his experience instead.
*RTFM - Read the Fancy Manual, or something like that.

In my last aircraft maintenance hangar (before I retired) we had a sign on the middle of a bathroom mirror. You could not not see it: 'The enemy of a junior operator is inexperience. The enemy of a senior operator is complacency.'
Old and bold techs can be worse that new techs because they can think they're past learning. I've earned that opinion as a former tech who started work in 1983 as a 15 year old apprentice mechanic in the auto industry.

Let's try one more time to see what the workshop manual says. I think it's being ignored, disregarded or misunderstood. There are two distinct procedures for the front and rear diffs: Oil Drain and Fill, and an Oil (level) Check.

Drain and Fill

Summary:

1. Drain the oil.
2. Put 2.1 litres in.
3. Finish.

There is no reference to an oil height measurement for a drain and fill. Just fill it with the correct quantity of oil - 2.1 litres. Let's all read it together:

Level Check
This is the procedure that dealers should follow during annual servicings where there is no oil change specified. At some stage you also might want to check the level of the oil. Maybe you have a leaky pinion seal and are monitoring the oil level until you can get it repaired.

Summary:

1. Remove the filler plug. If oil spills out the filler port DRAIN THE OIL TO THE CORRECT LEVEL.
2. Use the SST to measure and adjust the correct height of the oil below the filler port.
3. Finish.

It seems clear to me that if 2.1 litres was put in during the drain and fill and there has been no leaks, the SST will confirm the oil level is still correct. It's slightly more accurate than a finger dip. Read along with me please:

Finally; there are many instances where SSTs are coded in the workshop manual as SSTxxx. That doesn't invalidate the tool. I'm confident that just means that the SST PN wasn't available at the time the procedures were written and they haven't been updated since.
The front diff oil level check procedure is dated 2023-08-21.
The special tools list was compiled on 2023-12-11.
Attached.

The special tools list doesn't have images and the tools are not hyperlinked in the procedures. It could be any of these:
Item 630. GRA-0F00-017410. Gauge
Item 820. GRA-0F00-017600. Filler Device
Item 850. GRA-0F00-017630. Measuring Adapter
Item 1020. GRA-0F00-017800. Gauge
Item 1100. GRA-0F00-017880. Gauge
Item 1210. GRA-0F00-017990. Gauge

 

[Tazzieman]

I think if you follow the factory manual you won't have to lie when something fails and you need support/ compensation.

 

[Rok_Dr]

It's time to stop fighting the manual. Or if you don't want to do that at least stop fighting those who do want to follow it.

I don't much care for an argument based on normalising a practice that is contrary to the OEM's instructions. To stick with "that's the way we've always done it" would still have us still swinging a lantern in front of the vehicle.
Nor do I care much for senior technicians that don't follow the manual because they've become too lazy to read or are complacent because they've been doing it their own way for years.

I'll illustrate this first hand:
At my first 12 month/15,000km service the trusted senior technician didn't do the mandatory diff oil changes. Why not? Because he didn't know they needed to be done. Why? Because he didn't fully read the service schedule to comply with the note for the mandatory oil change. When I pointed out this error my agent asked for the vehicle to come back for correction. 2nd time around the trusted senior technician changed the Rear diff oil. Why? Because he interpreted R in the task list as (R)ear. He even wrote "Rear diff oil replaced" on the job docket. It seems that not only did he not RTFM* the first time, he then reinforced his complacency by not decoding R as (R)eplace the oil. Why not? Because in his experience no manufacturer changes the diff oil at the first service. And that was his downfall. The unwillingness to recognise he was working on a new platform and to pay attention to the documentation. He relied on his experience instead.
*RTFM - Read the Fancy Manual, or something like that.

In my last aircraft maintenance hangar (before I retired) we had a sign on the middle of a bathroom mirror. You could not not see it: 'The enemy of a junior operator is inexperience. The enemy of a senior operator is complacency.'
Old and bold techs can be worse that new techs because they can think they're past learning. I've earned that opinion as a former tech who started work in 1983 as a 15 year old apprentice mechanic in the auto industry.

Let's try one more time to see what the workshop manual says. I think it's being ignored, disregarded or misunderstood. There are two distinct procedures for the front and rear diffs: Oil Drain and Fill, and an Oil (level) Check.

Drain and Fill

Summary:

1. Drain the oil.
2. Put 2.1 litres in.
3. Finish.

There is no reference to an oil height measurement for a drain and fill. Just fill it with the correct quantity of oil - 2.1 litres. Let's all read it together:

View attachment 7919289

Level Check
This is the procedure that dealers should follow during annual servicings where there is no oil change specified. At some stage you also might want to check the level of the oil. Maybe you have a leaky pinion seal and are monitoring the oil level until you can get it repaired.

Summary:

1. Remove the filler plug. If oil spills out the filler port DRAIN THE OIL TO THE CORRECT LEVEL.
2. Use the SST to measure and adjust the correct height of the oil below the filler port.
3. Finish.

It seems clear to me that if 2.1 litres was put in during the drain and fill and there has been no leaks, the SST will confirm the oil level is still correct. It's slightly more accurate than a finger dip. Read along with me please:

View attachment 7919290


Finally; there are many instances where SSTs are coded in the workshop manual as SSTxxx. That doesn't invalidate the tool. I'm confident that just means that the SST PN wasn't available at the time the procedures were written and they haven't been updated since.
The front diff oil level check procedure is dated 2023-08-21.
The special tools list was compiled on 2023-12-11.
Attached.

The special tools list doesn't have images and the tools are not hyperlinked in the procedures. It could be any of these:
Item 630. GRA-0F00-017410. Gauge
Item 820. GRA-0F00-017600. Filler Device
Item 850. GRA-0F00-017630. Measuring Adapter
Item 1020. GRA-0F00-017800. Gauge
Item 1100. GRA-0F00-017880. Gauge
Item 1210. GRA-0F00-017990. Gauge

Thank you!

 

[Dokatd]

Y'all are no fun!!