Diff Lockers unlock on their own??

[chrsbe]

diff lock issues, cross posted on the FB US Grenadier owners page

picked up the Gren Saturday, really impressed until today. decided to try the center diff (worked great), then the lockers(not good). I have the "rough pack). rear engaged fine, front would not. went through all the normal stuff, ended up with error messages for both front and rear. called the...

www.theineosforum.com

Look at the Video. Assuming our lockers are somehow simmilar. (Who knows until someone of us digs in) I can imagine that a disengagement can happen when reversing the vehicle. Would you agree or am i wrong?

 

[Krabby]

Absolut clear, I just meant, that they made a programming mistake also by starting with 2x4 instead 4x4. And Ineos disenganges the diff lock...

AWo

If that's the case, it's could be remedied with a software update, correct?

 

[[ Adam ]]

If that's the case, it's could be remedied with a software update, correct?

Maybe.

According to the Eaton installation manual, the differential lock engages via an electromagnet - when the power is removed, the differential unlocks.

This indicates that keeping the differentials engaged when the vehicle is off will require constant power.

Not impossible, but certainly an additional wrinkle.

 

[Krabby]

Maybe.

According to the Eaton installation manual, the differential lock engages via an electromagnet - when the power is removed, the differential unlocks.

This indicates that keeping the differentials engaged when the vehicle is off will require constant power.

Not impossible, but certainly an additional wrinkle.

Did not realize that but it makes sense. I recognize elockers need partial rotation to engage, but perhaps IA could streamline the engagement/disengagement protocol.

 

[anand]

Did not realize that but it makes sense. I recognize elockers need partial rotation to engage, but perhaps IA could streamline the engagement/disengagement protocol.

I would imagine some of it has to do with (I'm speculating as I don't have a technical manual) the fact that they do engage/disengage fairly quickly, as with other brands, however, Ineos uses the wheel speed sensors to confirm engagement/disengagement for the lights. We had this with a vehicle at an OEX class a few months ago that showed it was still locked despite all the unlocking tricks (reversing, turning, driving straight a few meters, even unlocking the center diff which forces an unlock of the F/R diffs, power cycling, etc). After this process we had the client drive into the obstacle and confirm the rear diff was unlocked, while experiencing wheelspin on the obstacle the lights finally switched to indicate that it was unlocked.

If memory serves me correctly, some other brands that use electronic lockers show the indicator as "on" or "off" simply based upon motor/magnet positioning; Ineos decided to take it a step beyond (for better or worse) with using wheels speed as a confirmation before changing the indicator

 

[Krabby]

I would imagine some of it has to do with (I'm speculating as I don't have a technical manual) the fact that they do engage/disengage fairly quickly, as with other brands, however, Ineos uses the wheel speed sensors to confirm engagement/disengagement for the lights. We had this with a vehicle at an OEX class a few months ago that showed it was still locked despite all the unlocking tricks (reversing, turning, driving straight a few meters, even unlocking the center diff which forces an unlock of the F/R diffs, power cycling, etc). After this process we had the client drive into the obstacle and confirm the rear diff was unlocked, while experiencing wheelspin on the obstacle the lights finally switched to indicate that it was unlocked.

If memory serves me correctly, some other brands that use electronic lockers show the indicator as "on" or "off" simply based upon motor/magnet positioning; Ineos decided to take it a step beyond (for better or worse) with using wheels speed as a confirmation before changing the indicator

Exactly - go to ON-OFF with no BS. Put the onus on the driver.

 

[anand]

Put the onus on the driver.

a dangerous game to play with the American consumer

 

[Krabby]

a dangerous game to play with the American consumer

 

[pmatusov]

The relation between indicator lights and mechanical action has always been a sore subject.
Say, in Land Rovers using LT-230 transfer case, there is a switch enabled by a moving mechanical part in the case. It is a rare occasion if the movement of this part does not correspond to locking/unlocking of a center differential; however, the switch may be installed too deeply in (showing always locked), or too shallowly in (never showing if center diff lock occurred), or not quite there - meaning it could show CDL as locked while the splines on the locking collar barely engaged their counterpart.
In the latter case, the CDL under load could unlock with a bang, without any indication on the instrument panel. It happened to my Disco many times till I gave up on this light altogether. But, at least, there was a mechanical action I could take to un/relock it to ensure the action.

I don't know how the Grenadiers' axle diff locks are actuated. If it is done by means of a stepper motor, turning OFF the ignition should not result in diffs unlocking. If it is done by means of an electromagnet that is energized as long as the locking action is desired, most likely, all axle diffs will unlock with ignition OFF.

My issue with axle diff locks in my Grenadier is them not willing to unlock. Last time, the only way I could get them to disengage was to execute a very sharp turn on pavement - which triggered a myriad of other lights including CEL and all brake/traction control lights. Some of them went away with an engine restart, some of them - after a few miles' drive.
Not terrible, but disconcerting.

 

[Tinerfeño]

I really dislike the locker functions on IG. The indication for disengaging via ABS is stupid.
And power supply could be constant, not only ignition on. I installed (long time ago) my KAM locker solenoid via constant 12 V supply to be sure it won't open on it's own.

 

[DaveB]

Maybe.

According to the Eaton installation manual, the differential lock engages via an electromagnet - when the power is removed, the differential unlocks.

This indicates that keeping the differentials engaged when the vehicle is off will require constant power.

Not impossible, but certainly an additional wrinkle.

Electromagnets can resonate/vibrate when activated.
If they continued to engage when the vehicle is turned off and stationary this could create wear on components.
It may not happen often but potential for owner to forget they had the lockers on, park the vehicle for a while and come back to find a flat battery.

 

[[ Adam ]]

Electromagnets can resonate/vibrate when activated.
If they continued to engage when the vehicle is turned off and stationary this could create wear on components.
It may not happen often but potential for owner to forget they had the lockers on, park the vehicle for a while and come back to find a flat battery.

Agreed - there should be a time limit on how long they stay engaged. I also haven't confirmed that this is how our lockers engage - just that this is what Eaton's latest tech is using.

 

[pmatusov]

Electromagnets can resonate/vibrate when activated.
If they continued to engage when the vehicle is turned off and stationary this could create wear on components.
It may not happen often but potential for owner to forget they had the lockers on, park the vehicle for a while and come back to find a flat battery.

Electromagnets should never resonate/vibrate when activated. If they do, the control circuit is bad. Electromagnets also should never wear out, and, most often, they don't.

I agree that diff locks should be engaged sparingly and it is rather good than bad that they disengage when the power is off. However, personally, I'd prefer more control. Especially while parked off camber/up/down grade.

 

[MurphyMurph]

Wasn’t this supposed to be a very basic, utilitarian, no frills vehicle? This is sounding more and more complicated. Timers for lockers and all, lol.

One of my 80-Series Land Cruisers is triple locked. The lockers disengage quickly but the center diff lock (auto engaged when low gear is selected) is sometimes a little slow to release. That is a 27 year old vehicle. Why can’t Ineos get this right?

 

[MurphyMurph]

I’ll have to check if the axle lockers disengage when turned off and restated. I would guess not since but I’ll report back this weekend.

 

[DaveB]

Wasn’t this supposed to be a very basic, utilitarian, no frills vehicle? This is sounding more and more complicated. Timers for lockers and all, lol.

One of my 80-Series Land Cruisers is triple locked. The lockers disengage quickly but the center diff lock (auto engaged when low gear is selected) is sometimes a little slow to release. That is a 27 year old vehicle. Why can’t Ineos get this right?

You have just made some interesting points
Toyota has been making these types of vehicles for over 50 years
They use an auto engaging centre diff instead of Ineos manual one.
It only locks in low range not high and low like the Grenadier
You admit it is sometimes slow to disengage but you are Ok with that.


I think every system has it issues and quirks.

 

[DaveB]

Electromagnets should never resonate/vibrate when activated. If they do, the control circuit is bad. Electromagnets also should never wear out, and, most often, they don't.

I agree that diff locks should be engaged sparingly and it is rather good than bad that they disengage when the power is off. However, personally, I'd prefer more control. Especially while parked off camber/up/down grade.

Electromagnetic radiation travels in waves that "vibrate" at different frequencies.

I have used electromagnetics a lot in factory automation and industrial applications for the last 40+ years and find that the larger and more powerful they are the more obvious the vibration is.
Some can be heard and can also produce noticeable heat.
Effectively they should never wear out but in reality they do have a life of maybe 100,000+ operations.
More than my lifetime.

i noticed one Youtube expert complained about the eaton lockers disengaging and re-engaging when he went from forward to reverse, or rocked the vehicle.
He said the airlockers he was sponsored by were the best option as they remained locked all the time.
Then he lost pressure in his air lines in the desert and couldn't find the problem after several hours.
No diff locks after that.

Every system has pro's and con's I guess. (Unless they are the sponsor of your chanel)

 

[Zimm]

Electromagnets can resonate/vibrate when activated.
If they continued to engage when the vehicle is turned off and stationary this could create wear on components.
It may not happen often but potential for owner to forget they had the lockers on, park the vehicle for a while and come back to find a flat battery.

Well just add yet one more klaxon to the system to warn you its been left engaged with the car turned off. I'd rather have that. I shut my fj60 off on oddball climbs all the time and restart with the starter motor while locked up, so, I'm basically trained to commit suicide in this thing. (250:1 crawl)

 

[MurphyMurph]

You have just made some interesting points
Toyota has been making these types of vehicles for over 50 years
They use an auto engaging centre diff instead of Ineos manual one.
It only locks in low range not high and low like the Grenadier
You admit it is sometimes slow to disengage but you are Ok with that.


I think every system has it issues and quirks.

Just seems like a newer company would do enough research and testing of other products on the market to maximize any learnings from others’ failures and successes. Don’t get me wrong, I’m selling all 3 of my Land Cruisers to be able to afford my Grenadier, so I’m all in. But I can be afforded a little disappointment when the million plus miles of testing and being “built on purpose” still results in some very obvious deficiencies and potential safety issues built into the vehicle by design.

 

[DaveB]

Just seems like a newer company would do enough research and testing of other products on the market to maximize any learnings from others’ failures and successes. Don’t get me wrong, I’m selling all 3 of my Land Cruisers to be able to afford my Grenadier, so I’m all in. But I can be afforded a little disappointment when the million plus miles of testing and being “built on purpose” still results in some very obvious deficiencies and potential safety issues built into the vehicle by design.

This is a great video from Harrop showing the e-locker in action

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nT_H6rpd-Ck