Class action

[HeavyFoot]

Just my 2p but...I have one of the last of the proper Defenders and until we got the Ineos out family car was an L663 Defender which was catastrophically unreliable, (driveshaft 42k, engine 40k, turbos 40k, craksharft pulley 30k, several batteries and electrical faults) the Ineos is far better. I wasn't that impressed with the dealer, but have had a few minor warranty repairs which were dealt with easily. My local dealer closed so now its a 2 hour journey to the next one, but its not the end of the world, I could get it done locally but prefer to put in a little effort to ensure theres no question on the warranty.

Steering is absolutely not an issue for us and easy to get used to, my Mrs uses her old Defender regularly over the 10 years we've had it so jumping in the Ineos is easy, she absolutely loves it. We live on a farm so its great there, but mostly its on the road doing the school runs etc.

It does, like any car, have its flaws, but I've had many low run cars over the years - 10 Lotus, Alfa 4C, McLaren etc and all these cars had a few finish issues, but kind of goes with the territory. I think the Ineos is actually better put together than all of them, which for a new company is pretty impressive in myu opinion.

I think it comes down to perspective. With some of the cars I've had in the past and suffering with the new LR reliability and dealer issues, the Ineos feels like a step forward. If youre coming from something more mainstream then perhaps it may be quite frustrating.

Do you still have a 4C? I think there are 4 of us on the 4C forum that have Grenadiers. I think it takes the same type of person. You have to enjoy the experience!

 

[Dokatd]

Statistically the number of driveshafts that break per hundreds of thousands of miles driven is really low. I suspect there are other issues that have a much higher failure rate that you could worry about. This SUV is a version 1.0 and it's probably a bit unfair to expect Toyota reliability and service from the company. That is just reality....

I am about to set out on a 4 or 5 day roadtrip that is probably about 1200 miles or so and honestly am not worried about the driveshaft breaking... Maybe I am dumb, but I have spent enough miles (18,000 so far) that I am not worried about it...

Well, everyone's mileage varies both literally and figuratively. Lifted trucks go seemingly between 7000-20000mi before having issues. Stock trucks seem to go up to about 50k miles before the shaft gives up. But many stock trucks have lost the shaft in far far less mileage.

I won't say it's coming to get you, but the odds are better than worse. Reports of failure on both stock and modded trucks are mounting rapidly as people are putting more miles on. But if you never really stretch your trucks legs maybe you will get lucky putting on the highway miles in a 4x4 truck.

 

[Shopkeep]

Well, everyone's mileage varies both literally and figuratively. Lifted trucks go seemingly between 7000-20000mi before having issues. Stock trucks seem to go up to about 50k miles before the shaft gives up. But many stock trucks have lost the shaft in far far less mileage.

I won't say it's coming to get you, but the odds are better than worse. Reports of failure on both stock and modded trucks are mounting rapidly as people are putting more miles on. But if you never really stretch your trucks legs maybe you will get lucky putting on the highway miles in a 4x4 truck.

When you say there are “many” and “mounting rapidly” reports of stock trucks being affected just how many are you talking about?

 

[Dokatd]

When you say there are “many” and “mounting rapidly” reports of stock trucks being affected just how many are you talking about?

I am not the one to ask because I don't use Facebook etc. But there have been reports from across the globe of stock failures. There are reports of dealers keeping them in stock to fulfill the need. Most failures are likely not even reported online as most owners aren't nerds like us.

So I can't state a number, but I can say the frequency in our little group is getting higher every month. I can also say that failure is not a lifted vs stock issue, just that lifted trucks have an accelerated timeline of failure.

 

[C-Mack]

Curious when we’ll start to see rear driveshaft boot failures appear? Rear driveshaft is running at less stressful angles for sure but as the miles pile up across the existing fleet wouldn’t be surprised to see a few start cropping up.

 

[Skydance]

I think that's why half the complaints about the vehicle don't cross over very well and then the accusations of fanboys start.
What is acceptable to one nation is a disaster to another and then vice versa on the next complaint. You would only use a dealer 100 miles or more away if it was the likes of Ferrari or Rolls Royce and they collected and returned your vehicle on a covered low loader. Otherwise you just buy the local brand.

I think if it’s your only work vehicle or daily then it would be an issue. Not everyone has the luxury of having a fleet of cars in their garage.

 

[Dokatd]

Curious when we’ll start to see rear driveshaft boot failures appear? Rear driveshaft is running at less stressful angles for sure but as the miles pile up across the existing fleet wouldn’t be surprised to see a few start cropping up.

I'm not sure the rear will max the boot out. Now the C-clip issue I don't know.

 

[Oscar786]

Sadly everyone just comes back and makes excuses or downplays the vehicles major faults. There are too many willing to play FanBoi. If people were honest with themselves and not accept super compromised designs we could get somewhere, but I doubt that will happen.

Yes have to agree . I’ve actually got a loan Ineos which is a brand new 2025 and the heating issue is still there , so that’s not fixed yet . The excuse Ineos give you regarding the heating is … majority of the customers are happy and the whole heating mechanism had to be compromised due to space issues . This is not acceptable. It’s looking doom and gloom for us owners who bought the first batch of the 2023 models .

 

[Roach]

For the US a class action could work.

@Earthwatcher, maybe you should add a poll to gather some numbers. The forum is a small sample but you will need to show commonality.

Also will need to demonstrate one of; diminished value, unreimbursed repairs or economic loss. From what I’ve read this should be easy but what makes it a bit more complex is it’s all over the place; doors, leaks, hvac, squealing pumps…. Another poll might help to sort out how typical the issues are.

If somebody picks this up it’s not going to be huge (like a VAG class action)….even IG fans will join the suit but total cars sold is small. What’s different to me is it’s not a single issue but a number of issues. Maybe diminished value is what to lean on as it might be big.

Just this thread alone might provide a group the clues and also kick IG into gear, ie: 10k loss per unit is bigger than fixing leaks, squeaks and tweaks (oh my).

 

[Commodore]

Yes the Grenadier has a few issues but I can point to other new cars that have bigger problems occurring at higher rates... I'm looking at you Toyota, GM & Ford. The two big ones are the front driveshaft and the HVAC. Only the front driveshaft is a safety issue and I just don't see this turning into a class action. Ineos is going to just keep replacing them under warranty on stock cars. It's only going to become a recall if the feds step in. Report you driveshaft failures and just maybe something happens in a few years.

 

[Shopkeep]

I am not the one to ask because I don't use Facebook etc. But there have been reports from across the globe of stock failures. There are reports of dealers keeping them in stock to fulfill the need. Most failures are likely not even reported online as most owners aren't nerds like us.

So I can't state a number, but I can say the frequency in our little group is getting higher every month. I can also say that failure is not a lifted vs stock issue, just that lifted trucks have an accelerated timeline of failure.

Enough to count on one hand? Maybe two? What about two hands and two feet? Before you go the full Chicken Little it might pay the know how many stock trucks are actually having the driveshaft failures. I am seeing occasional reports of such failures, not many. There are more (maybe many) failures reported in the US on lifted trucks, your market and dealers were quick and eager to promote lifts so it follows that those dealers would be getting more back with the issue and are prepared. For those with stock suspension yes it is an issue that should be monitored and occasionally checked for but the sky has not fallen yet.

 

[Roach]

I follow many auto forums and this one by far has the greatest number of issues. IMO, @Dokatd is on solid ground but….a poll would be interesting, maybe a simple yes/no to start with.

Trying to convince the OP he should be happy is interesting

 

[Dokatd]

Trying to convince the OP he should be happy is interesting

Isn't it!

The number of times I have heard "just sell it if you're not happy" on this board is kinda insane.

 

[Jeremy996]

I follow many auto forums and this one by far has the greatest number of issues.

You seem to be a stranger to Lotus, Morgan, TVR and Land Rover ones! There is possibly some significance in them being UK marques.

I know the US is different, (I remember the nightmare for Morgan of litigation in the USA), but in the UK, there is not the equivalent of a class action.

Anyone with a lifted Grenadier is likely to have any request for a warranty repair on a driveshaft tossed aside; UK law would be of no assistance.

As a safety issue, driveshaft failure on a standard truck is only going to be of issue to the regulatory bodies if the incidence of failure is greater than the possibility of random chance. If Ineos fix them as a warranty matter, that might be difficult to prove. Back in the mid'90s when I worked for a vehicle warranty company, we used to recover our costs from the manufacturers when they had systemic failures, but it took failure rates in excess of 10% before we could pressure a settlement, (and we had in-house counsel).

The HVAC is an interesting problem as some vehicles seem to work OK, like mine, so it is not a general issue, which would tend to undermine any collective action in any jurisdiction.

 

[Dokatd]

Enough to count on one hand? Maybe two? What about two hands and two feet? Before you go the full Chicken Little it might pay the know how many stock trucks are actually having the driveshaft failures. I am seeing occasional reports of such failures, not many. There are more (maybe many) failures reported in the US on lifted trucks, your market and dealers were quick and eager to promote lifts so it follows that those dealers would be getting more back with the issue and are prepared. For those with stock suspension yes it is an issue that should be monitored and occasionally checked for but the sky has not fallen yet.

We can only speculate based on the small sampling here. But if we have say 10 reports here of stock shafts failing then you can reasonably assume that's double or triple or more in the real world. And that doesn't count ones that have failed and the owner just doesn't know yet. And with such a small number of trucks on the road that's bad.

 

[Shopkeep]

We can only speculate based on the small sampling here. But if we have say 10 reports here of stock shafts failing then you can reasonably assume that's double or triple or more in the real world. And that doesn't count ones that have failed and the owner just doesn't know yet. And with such a small number of trucks on the road that's bad.

Don’t get me wrong, I appreciate the work you guys are putting in to find a solution to what is a definitely a common issue with lifted trucks. That solution may also be required for some stock trucks when they are out of warranty. It would be great to have more clarity on the size of the issue on stock trucks so prospective owners can make an informed decision on buying a new or used Grenadier/QM.

 

[Commodore]

We can only speculate based on the small sampling here. But if we have say 10 reports here of stock shafts failing then you can reasonably assume that's double or triple or more in the real world. And that doesn't count ones that have failed and the owner just doesn't know yet. And with such a small number of trucks on the road that's bad.

All online forums have a self sampling basis... people with problems seek out advise online. It isn't a random sample. Instead it over samples people with problems. It makes the issue appear to more common than it actually is.

 

[LeeroyJ]

.....

But it seems to me that the closure of so many sales and service centres has been neglectful on INEOS's part. Surely there is something on "duty of care" in law that they've abandoned. I'd be willing to chip in a wedge of cash in to a pot, if only to initially explore the possibilities of a class action against the company. But I'm not a lawyer, just an old fool who probably has more money than sense, and arguably not much of either.

.....

Closure of third-party sales and service centers is unlikely to constitute a cause of action, in the US or UK. You would need to be able to prove that Ineos promised that those service centers would be open for some specific time and that promise is what induced you to make the purchase. You would also have the challenge of trying to calculate the financial harm you suffered.

Turning that from an individual case to a class action would be even more challenging.

A class action may have more chance to succeed if it was based on a more specific cause of action with a defined group that are similarly situated and similarly harmed. Like the suggestions in this thread about a class action for failure of a specific component (like the front drive axle CV), with the class being those people who have been harmed by the failure (not just people who are afraid it will happen to them).

This is not my area of the law, but that's what I would anticipate. Of course, this is just my informal opinion and should not be interpreted as legal advice. You should seek local counsel for that.

 

[Dokatd]

Don’t get me wrong, I appreciate the work you guys are putting in to find a solution to what is a definitely a common issue with lifted trucks. That solution may also be required for some stock trucks when they are out of warranty. It would be great to have more clarity on the size of the issue on stock trucks so prospective owners can make an informed decision on buying a new or used Grenadier/QM.

After recent discoveries I think you will be shocked how much this affects stock trucks as well. It's a ticking time bomb on all builds. Lifts just accelerate the problem. So does aggressive driving or hard offroad work.

 

[Dokatd]

All online forums have a self sampling basis... people with problems seek out advise online. It isn't a random sample. Instead it over samples people with problems. It makes the issue appear to more common than it actually is.

I won't argue that with you, truth is in there. But call up John at Agile and ask him about the sales of his HD shaft that causes vibes. Apparently sales are off the charts. Could that be attributed to fear mongering, sure. Could it also be a result of many unreported stock or lifted drive shaft failures, you betcha. Will we know for sure, probably never. But I'd sure as hell keep an eye on your shaft in the meantime. Hate to hear Ineos deny warranty for a trashed gear box on your truck due to you using it for what it is.